Podcast Transcript
[00:00:00] Hey, welcome to the Church Collective podcast. I’m excited to be able to talk about this episode. We had the opportunity, Chris and myself, to talk to Dr. Gabriel Miller from Liberty University, a fellow [00:00:10] professor. For those of you that didn’t know, I’m a professor too. Love teaching worship. So it’s awesome to talk to another music and worship professor.He wrote a book about idols in how we can take. [00:00:20] So if we’re not actually worshiping the Lord, then our hearts are going to be pulled towards finding something else to worship. So I think you’re going to be really blessed by this conversation. We go down a lot of different [00:00:30] paths, but it’s just an honor to be able to talk with Dr.
Miller. And I hope this was a blessing to you and a quick note for you that are just joining. If you haven’t already gotten into our network, make sure to head over to [00:00:40] our Instagram. Hit the bio and join our network. There’s a place where we put together incredible training. For you and your teams and we are only getting started with a lot of the amazing things that are going in there So we’d love to see [00:00:50] you and with that said here we go with the episode of the church collective podcast with dr.
Miller
hey everybody, . My name’s Gabriel. I’m my primary job is I’m here at [00:01:00] Liberty University as an associate Dean in the School of Music.
I teach music theory. I teach worship. My, my background I was called into ministry at age [00:01:10] 33. So super late start by most people’s standards. But my wife and I lead worship at a church here in town in Lynchburg, Virginia, all people’s [00:01:20] church. And that has really become a major part of my life.
And I love the Lord. I love all things related to [00:01:30] worship. And written a few books. Ryan was with me in one of our classes at Liberty. And a couple of little books on worship. And so anyway that’s a little [00:01:40] bit about me.
Man, I did, I got caught in the, as you’re saying, like you didn’t get into ministry until 33 when it feels like, often that’s the age, 30 to 40 or so.
A lot of people are jumping out. Like I just, how [00:01:50] did, what did the Lord do to you there?
I, in high school, I really felt that I was supposed to go into music. Rather than math engineering, that was the other [00:02:00] option. And so I did a music major at Florida State, ended up doing a master’s degree in church music at Lee University, but I specifically asked [00:02:10] them, I said, do I have to be a horse leader to do this degree?
Because I just didn’t feel that was a part of the call of God on my life at that time. And it went on to do a PhD in music theory at [00:02:20] Ohio State was teaching music theory at University of Louisiana Lafayette. And I had, diploma in hand, career in hand, [00:02:30] and my wife and I just started to feel the pull toward ministry specifically music ministry at first.
But as the time went on really toward the [00:02:40] teaching call in an Ephesians 4, 11 sense. And so that’s where we’re at now. Crazy. Thirteen years later.
Amazing. So you’re [00:02:50] doing before we started the podcast episode, you were talking about your church’s teaching on worship. And I was actually just teaching a class this morning and talking about how that’s really important for us as worship [00:03:00] leaders to actually maybe find time to do even like a whole sermon series on it.
But I’d love to hear what was that look like?
Back in 2016 I [00:03:10] did a six week series on worship, the who, what, where, when, why. And that actually became my little book, The Worship of [00:03:20] God, a couple of years later turned that into a book. And a few weeks ago, my wife said, I feel like we’re supposed to do a series on worship.
[00:03:30] And she actually mentioned reteaching my book as we talked through it. We went a different direction with it, but this worship series we’re doing is pretty atypical where it’s not who, [00:03:40] what, when, where, why, it’s really just some things to help our congregation move forward.I talked about on last Sunday, submission and surrender. Samantha, my wife, [00:03:50] Samantha talked about that the week before that. Three inhibitors to worship, and so that’s where the trajectory of it is some very [00:04:00] practical things But yeah, I agree. I think it’s it’s a good idea You know once in a while.
We got it. We got to go in and get some of these series in that [00:04:10] Should come back around Every so often.
Yeah,
I’m trying to like, I’ve [00:04:20] just so many things to jump into on that. I’d love to something that I find that I’m Constantly like conversing with other worship leaders on like worship [00:04:30] is everything Like, worship is obedience, worship we it encompasses all the things, and everybody agrees with that we’ll talk about it, and everybody’s [00:04:40] happy to, yeah, absolutely, and then okay, but what about the songs?
And then it turns into what do we focus on? I’d love to just hear your, hear your thoughts on where does, Where’s that [00:04:50] line? Like it is, but also we need to do a good job.
Yeah. Yeah, no, there’s a call to doing the work doing the job. Yeah, for sure. [00:05:00] But I’m glad you brought that up because that, that’s definitely high on my list of things I’m passionate about when it comes to worship is true worship being [00:05:10] tangentially related to music, but it’s really not the core.
And I look at a book like the book of Romans, that’s one of the [00:05:20] things I’m going to be going back to in this series on worship that we’re doing on Sundays. Basically one of those weeks is going to be me teaching the entire book of Romans.
In a week.
[00:05:30] Yeah, just, a snapshot but it gets you.Here’s what it gets you. Romans 12, 1 is the verse, in my opinion, on worship, at least in the New Testament, [00:05:40]right? And we know it. Therefore, my brethren, I beseech you by the mercies of God to present yourselves a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable. This is your spiritual act of worship. This is true and [00:05:50] proper worship.
This is your reasonable service, whatever your translation says. Of course, we get a glimpse there that worship means serving. The other word for worship, by the way, means bowing down, [00:06:00] right? So worship, when you see the word worship in your Bible, nine times out of 10 plus, it means either serving or [00:06:10] service or bowing down.
Okay. So we have that little piece, but again, Romans 12 one, what is the most important word in that [00:06:20] verse? And you go through and you think about it and some people might get to the right answer eventually, but the answer is holy. [00:06:30] Therefore, I beseech you, brethren, by the mercies of God, present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable.[00:06:40]
In order to be, this is worship, holiness is worship, and to be acceptable worship to [00:06:50] God. It’s got to be holy holiness in order to be acceptable. It’s got to be holy and Paul says at the beginning of the [00:07:00] verse we just read it. We just go right by therefore. I beseech you brethren beseech[00:07:10]
He’s screaming this verse at us and so that the takeaway is the first 11 chapters of Romans Gives us this [00:07:20] map of everything God’s done for us through Jesus. And then Romans six there, and this is what people miss. [00:07:30] So many Christians today miss the message of holiness is not optional. Should we go on sinning so grace can abound more?
No. [00:07:40] And it’s not just try harder, it’s we have the power to stop sinning, to overcome sin. Romans 6, 14, [00:07:50] sin does not have dominion over you. And in light of, Paul says in Romans 12, 1, in light of all that, since we must move [00:08:00] forward in holiness, I’m begging you, be holy. That’s the only way you’re going to be acceptable.
And that is true worship. [00:08:10] So that’s a huge point for me. And, then it goes right into so many messes that we have in terms of worship leaders, pastors. You guys were [00:08:20] talking about the whole magic mega church phenomenon versus small churches and not to double mega churches.
It’s not that at all, but, um, we [00:08:30] have so many people falling from grace. And so my message is not okay. Dump on those people. We want to restore those people when appropriate when they’re in [00:08:40] repentance. And so it’s none of that, but I just, I look on it with such sadness as as does everyone.
And I say to myself, God, don’t let that be [00:08:50] me. And how do we keep from that? We’ve got to know the message that sloppy grace is not the way when your mind says that the gospel is I’m [00:09:00] forgiven and I have a free pass to heaven. And so therefore it really doesn’t matter how I live because everything’s covered.
It’s if that’s your mindset, you’re going to walk into that [00:09:10] mindset. But if your mindset is. God has made a way for me to have forgiveness and a path to heaven, praise the Lord. But he’s also made a way for [00:09:20] me to overcome sin. Then now I’m pressing into not trying harder, not doing better, but I’m looking to you Lord [00:09:30] because you have to help me.
You have to give me the power. You said you would do it. I have the power to overcome sin. So do it in me Lord. And so that’s the way to stay on [00:09:40] track. Lord, I hope I do it.
It’s, we’re just, we don’t even really talk about a lot of that.
Yeah, but to me, that’s worship. That, that’s worship 101,
[00:09:50] what would you what would you consider the most surprising, quote, golden calf, or thing that, [00:10:00]specifically church staff members at, different churches, things that they idolize, Yeah. They might not even realize it. [00:10:10] Yeah, it’s funny you bring up golden calves. So I’m not here to pitch books, but since you brought it up, okay My other little so I have two little tiny worship books that are kind of [00:10:20] companion books My other little worship book is called idol worship So the worship of god and idol worship and the idol worship book Is 14 chapters, 14 golden calves [00:10:30] 14 things where when we come in to worship on a Sunday morning, we think we’re worshiping God, but we’re actually worshiping something else.[00:10:40]And so from a staff perspective I think there’s so many we could talk about, but I think one is program structure. Now, I [00:10:50] think we there’s two sides of the ditch on that. I’m not way off in being so spontaneous that you have no structure. I’m not that guy [00:11:00] either, but some people are so wedded.
To the program to, this is going to be 37 seconds. And then this other thing is going to be [00:11:10] three minutes and 14 seconds. And all of a sudden you’ve sucked all the life out of, what are we really doing here? We’re, there’s a, there’s so many, not all, [00:11:20] but so many places that are.
Trying to put on a show there. They’re trying to be a show business. It’s Disney World And so I’ve got to [00:11:30] have my program just so and I’ve just never been one to go for that it’s tough for me. It’s tough for me. [00:11:40]
Yeah, Ryan and I yesterday were talking about the concept of Different sized churches being different like [00:11:50]levels And, your career as a staff member there was a specific post that kind of triggered us, triggered me, [00:12:00] and but just the concept of, making your way up the ladder from smaller church to bigger church is enhancing your career.
What
are your
thoughts [00:12:10] on that?
Yeah. Wow. Yeah, such a great question. I know it’s. It’s almost out of left field for me. I don’t, I love where [00:12:20] I’m at and we’re in my church. That’s such a foreign concept. Let’s just put it that way. It’s such a foreign concept. I know that there are people and there are [00:12:30] systems that, that’s the way it is.
But it’s not something I think about because it’s just so foreign to me, but just like any career, where you’re ascending [00:12:40] the ladder or something, you, you can make it that way. You can think in terms of going bigger, going better, going stronger, going more money, all of that.
And and I’m not against [00:12:50] any of that. I’m not against any of that in terms of know, if the Lord wants to bless you by giving you a bigger paycheck or a bigger church or a bigger platform or [00:13:00] whatever who am I to come against that, but if that’s our mission. Or, if that’s what’s driving us, then that, that seems backwards to me.
[00:13:10] So if you got triggered, I probably would be too. It sounds like,yeah, I just thought it goes along with, the different, the [00:13:20] idols that we’re talking about, and just reaching for something that’s not. Of God to me, yeah. Like just advancement of yourself.
Yeah. As [00:13:30] opposed to
Yeah.
The kingdom. Yeah. , I could, Ryan sent it to me during dinner I could, I literally couldn’t even eat my dinner. My wife was like, what’s wrong with you? And I was like, oh, I’m [00:13:40] just so disgusted.
Yeah.
It’s a hard, I was gonna say it’s a hard it’s just, we’ve made a, you almost don’t blame a lot of people cause it is the [00:13:50] industry of church.
And like I say that saying I don’t like it. Hear me say if you’re listening to this, like I’m not at all advocating for let’s climb the ladder, I think serve the Lord where you’re at and that’s the best [00:14:00] thing to do. But I also know the reality of there’s always like that dream for bigger, better.
And we’ve made. An idol again, like we’ve made a whole, like it is more [00:14:10] valuable on the surface to look at it. If I could just be at this big church, I see on YouTube, then that would mean I’m, I’ve got more impact. I’ve got more faith. [00:14:20] I’ve got more blessing. That’s just, we’ve made a, we’ve made a mess out of it all.
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s just, there’s the problem with that is there’s far too many counter [00:14:30] examples. Guys, I think about Judgment Day a lot, and eternity, and I think people don’t think, I’m talking about Christians, [00:14:40] and I’m not talking about heaven or hell, I’m talking about you’re a Christian, and you give no thought to Judgment Day, you give no thought to eternity, you give no thought [00:14:50] to standing before God, receiving rewards for the deeds done in this life, but also being held accountable, [00:15:00] and the fact is, when we get to that time and place.
There will be so [00:15:10] many more. There will be so many people who we look at in today’s world as a nobody. A [00:15:20] parishioner, a person in the pew. Of course, worldwide, we’re talking about China. Get out of side of America and you got a whole host of people who [00:15:30] they’ve met the goal and the purpose of their life.
I got a podcast called the purpose of your life. Okay. I keep giving myself commercials. I didn’t mean to do that. But [00:15:40] the purpose of your life. In other words, I’m doing what he wants me to do. I’m producing the fruit of the spirit, which is holiness. [00:15:50] And that is what’s going to get me rewards in the end.
Going to a bigger church is not going to get me a better reward. You’ve already got your [00:16:00] reward. Now, again, I’m not dumping on big church is fine. And if God opens that platform for you, great. Although just because we get a door open to something bigger [00:16:10] doesn’t mean we walk through it either.
Sometimes that’s a test of the heart and you’re supposed to stay where you are. But I think a lot of people just don’t think about Judgment Day. They [00:16:20] don’t think about everything I do. Lord, help us to make every step, every choice honoring you [00:16:30] so that when we get to the end, we don’t just slide into heaven by the skin of our teeth.
But we are righteous by him. We don’t earn that, but we [00:16:40] get our rewards from pressing into a life where he empowers us to be pleasing to him and we’ll be rewarded for that. And the rest of it, [00:16:50] icing on the cake.
And the standard that we’re measuring ourselves by which again is the irony as we’re doing this on a podcast, that’s probably sitting on YouTube.[00:17:00]
We’re saying like, this is not the, this is not the measure ultimately that God cares about.
Absolutely.
You touched on [00:17:10] something about staying and going, and we’ve had that question over in the last year. It’s been one of the biggest questions that we’ve had is should I stay or should I leave? [00:17:20] And some people are just leaving because of conflict and other people are leaving because they want a better paycheck and other people that want to just climb the ladder.[00:17:30]
But yeah. What do you say to people that are like, think they’re like, man, I don’t know if I need to stay here or not,
yeah. It’s a great question. And I think it [00:17:40] goes back to the beginning of what brought you to that place in the first place. It’s true of the people in the pew too. Why are you at the church that you’re at?
[00:17:50] And there should only be one reason God called you there. So if God has called me to whatever place. Whether I’m getting paid or I’m [00:18:00] not, whether I’m a volunteer or whether I’m just in the pew, that part really doesn’t matter. If God called me to this place, then this is where I am. And the [00:18:10] question, the answer to the question, when do I go is when God tells me to go.And even that should have some confirmations. So I just, there’s a lot of people that [00:18:20] think in terms of the Holy Spirit is inside me and I live I’m his. And so therefore, they won’t say it this way, but every [00:18:30] decision I make is the right decision because the Holy Spirit’s just in me and he just makes it happen and I don’t buy that.
We we make choices. Sometimes we make bad choices. Sometimes [00:18:40] we make choices that are not informed by the Lord. And, um, we need to be listening for when to go and generally [00:18:50] speaking, when to go is not when you’re in the middle of the storm, of course, when you, if you get fired that’s different, but [00:19:00] yeah, you never, and this is, this is true, not even just a church, but just jobs.
You never want to leave when you’re in the middle of the storm, you get past [00:19:10] that, where you can get some hindsight. And when you’re at a place where you’ve forgiven everything and all of that, then you say, okay, the, then you [00:19:20] feel there, there should be a rightness to it. It feels right. The time is right.
And if you’re just escaping something that’s uncomfortable, that’s [00:19:30] usually not the time.
All
right. We’ve
got our clip.
That’s great. That’s a great answer. [00:19:40]
Yeah, it is a great answer.
It just comes up.
Man,
I don’t know how they get all like he, I just, the more I like every time I talk about this cause [00:19:50] I, I’m sure the same thing too when you’re talking to students is just they’re always like trying to figure all that out.
And I find I end up getting more like worked up about just the way church [00:20:00] is from a guy that’s been in it for 25 years. That’s all I’ve done is like full time ministry. And it’s just man, I’m sorry that this is the reality. It feels like there’s some [00:20:10] glimmers of hope, like people are pushing away.
Yeah.
Or like they’re getting away from maybe the big thing, but it’s hard.
The other thing then is, okay, maybe God didn’t [00:20:20] call you there in the first place. In other words, you took that job because of whatever reason. And so now you’re basically you’re just reaping a [00:20:30] harvest because that wasn’t where he wanted you in the first place.
So now what do you do? Do you try to unscramble eggs? Of course, the answer to that is just on a case by case basis. [00:20:40] But you just have to, we have to try to follow the Lord. That’s all I, most of the time I keep a lot of things simple.
And the Lord’s grace when, even when we [00:20:50] make those stupid decisions, He still manages to redeem it.
Oh man, I
can’t even tell you the number of times. where Bonehead me and he’s turned it all for [00:21:00] good. I am so blessed in that way.
I’d love to maybe shift a little bit of the conversation. Another thing that we run into often is okay, do I need [00:21:10]music education? Not necessarily even it’s awesome.
I remember when I started, there wasn’t really worship education to have, to be had. I couldn’t go get a worship degree if I wanted it. So I went and got a music degree, [00:21:20] but I’d love to hear you with a background. Chris has got a music degree as well. Three guys that are trained in music.
I’d love to hear the value. Cause it does feel like [00:21:30] we, Don’t necessarily value like the practical skills of music too much. And what are your thoughts from where you’re at?
Yeah, I think you’re right. I think [00:21:40] that people are moving in that direction. Maybe we’re starting to move out and maybe back then maybe the pendulum is starting to swing back the other way, but I think it will [00:21:50]eventually.
I think if you’re in leader now, if the church is large enough even if the church isn’t large enough, having skills, developing those skills is [00:22:00] important. If your church is large enough to have a paid music position, ideally having as much development of that as you can.
Obviously I work at School of [00:22:10] Music at Liberty University. I’m not going to sit here and tell you education is not important, but not just music, but worship. We have a degree here. We have two [00:22:20] basic categories of bachelor’s degrees in worship as well as master’s degrees and so forth, but bachelor of music and worship leadership, and then a bachelor [00:22:30] of science and music and worship.
And the basic difference is one has a little bit more music and the other one does it. The BS degree has more room for other stuff. Like you can [00:22:40] take a youth ministry cognate or something. So, but we have worship courses, training in worship, not just music. And so part of that is leadership.
We have [00:22:50] a course on leadership, all kinds of things like that. And of course, that. Not, you’re not gonna get all that stuff. You’re still gonna come in on day one of your [00:23:00] career in worship leadership, and you’re gonna learn on the job. And there’s no way you can understand ministry without coming in and doing it.
Yeah. But and [00:23:10] experiences is key. And the more experiences you have the better you do. But, um, obviously I’m gonna say when possible having the training in music and [00:23:20] worship, both. If you’re in a paid position, or even if you have ways of, if you’re an unpaid position, getting some of those.
Skills from other ways. [00:23:30] That’s not spending thousands of dollars on a degree.
Yeah.
I’m for it.
What do you think, Chris, on education? [00:23:40]
I had a question and started talking about music education and it.
Oh, I can always, I can edit a chunk. If you want to go back to the other [00:23:50] questions,
memories from from college just popped in my head. I was just like, Oh, I remember that. One of the
things about education is.
You’re learning, [00:24:00] hopefully, you’re learning how to educate. You’re not just being educated, but when we’re worship pastors, or any kind of leadership role in [00:24:10] the church, there’s a teaching component to it. We’re supposed to be leading others, and so if you went to a class where they taught you about worship, now you can go and teach your worship [00:24:20] team or whatever.
Yeah, it’s not a one to one correlation, but there should be some of that rubbing off.
That’s a really good point. I don’t know, but most of my, especially when I [00:24:30] started, it was a lot of passing on both tactical yeah, I’ll get, let me teach you how to play this guitar. And then others like, let’s talk about the how and the why and the nuances of worship.
Yeah, that’s great. [00:24:40] Yeah, I
remember Cliff Lambert. Oh, yeah. It was years ago, but Cliff had brought some students. We’re [00:24:50] both from the Virginia Beach area, and he brought some students of his to help out with the worship night. And afterwards, he and I took the students out to Buffalo Wild Wings.[00:25:00]
And he just asked me, he’s could you just like share like what your week has been like as like a staff member to some students that have never been on [00:25:10] staff. And I told them, and It was, I remember how just completely blank stare shock they were at like [00:25:20] what ministry actually looks like from day to day versus what they’re fantasy of what it is, they think they’re just like writing songs and, playing music, [00:25:30] practicing and playing organized stuff and I was like, man, yeah, like 90 percent of it in front of a laptop and, just going to meetings and yeah, meeting with like other [00:25:40] staff members and stuff.
But, um, do you find that like a phenomenon where people, they just, it’s, they’re just not as much as you try to teach them [00:25:50] until they get in it, they’re just having no concept of what it’s really
I think that’s true. You never want, it reminds me of that mean what my parents think I do what, and then what I [00:26:00] think I do and then what I actually do is.
Ableton or something, Piney Center or something. Yeah, that is definitely true. At the end of the day, you are, and I mentioned this, but you’re going to get so much from the [00:26:10] experience. There’s no way you can anticipate the experience of the workplace of the of being in ministry.
That’s true of pretty much every job. People talk all the time, but you [00:26:20] come out of college or you come out of training or whatever, and then you really get the education once you get there. It’s both. It’s both. Both are important. But now having said that, [00:26:30] I’m in a weird place, man, where, you know I’m not going to be the best person to be able to answer this because I have such a weird situation with my church and the [00:26:40] ministry context that we’re in.
I’m in a small church. I am, uh, I’m bivocational. Every single [00:26:50] person on our leadership team is bivocational. We have zero full time. The lead pastor. is [00:27:00] bivocational. We’ve got several people that, that pull a part time salary. But we’re all doing this other job. That’s a full time job.
My, my week [00:27:10] does not look like meetings and all of that. I understand the people that, that, that is what their work looks like, but that’s just not one mind, what mine looks like. [00:27:20] However, it’s still true. That my ministry context, whoever’s ministry context. When you get in ministry, you’re just not, you don’t know until you go through it.
[00:27:30] And when you talk about working with people, it doesn’t matter if you’re part time, full time, whatever. If you’re in leadership and you’re working with people you’re going to learn some lessons, you’re going to learn some [00:27:40] lessons. And without going through that, there’s no, we can teach leadership lessons.We can say, Hey, you’re going to encounter such and such, but until you do, there’s [00:27:50] no really preparation for that. So I think working with people is almost unteachable without the life experience.
Yes, that is very true. [00:28:00]
I remembered my question that I was going to ask you before we start daydreaming about my college days.
What do you think about just like specifically the [00:28:10] American church? And the pedestal that we put like pastors on and, worship leaders from like an idolatry standpoint and we [00:28:20] just continually see these people that are lifted and elevated just falling, what are we doing wrong?
Wow. [00:28:30] Wow. What a great question. So my 14th idol of the idol worship book is the idol of ministry. And it [00:28:40] gets to this a little bit when, and I make the case too, that a pastor can have the idol of ministry with a tiny church of 15 people [00:28:50] because you have control.
So control. So some of the things that I think fold into the idol of ministry is control. We want control. Some people [00:29:00] want control if they have this item, um, power and fame and other things too. Some people have the [00:29:10]idol of, that starts in a good place of wanting to see the Lord move, wanting to see success in ministry, like true success, like the Lord is using me [00:29:20] powerfully and that, but that didn’t, that can be an idol.
And asking this question just the other day. Is it the bigger churches and the bigger platforms? That’s the people we [00:29:30] see, are we seeing them? Because. They have the bigger platform and so therefore it makes the news or is there more of [00:29:40] a Tendency or a higher level a higher degree of probability that those people would fall I think it’s probably both but [00:29:50] anybody and this goes back to what I was saying earlier.
Any If we don’t understand Judgment day. We don’t understand holiness [00:30:00] is not optional. We if we sacrifice in our own mind If we make compromises in our own mind, in our theology I think we’re much more likely to [00:30:10]just walk that into a practice. Now there are some, and this blows my mind, that have right theology and still go that way, but [00:30:20] think it’s pride.
It’s, um, you start making excuses for yourself. I’ve made it to such and such level. The Lord is giving me success. [00:30:30] Therefore, and you start filling in the blank, I deserve such and such. Therefore, I must he must not really he must not really care that I’m doing this, [00:30:40] otherwise he would stop me.
I’m sorry. That’s just not the way the Lord works. There’s too many counter examples where, you know, that person has a platform and I’m not even talking [00:30:50] about modern examples. David is a perfect example platform and he’s the king. And he gets to that place where he strays from being intentional [00:31:00] about being close to the Lord and there he goes, so it’s so sad and, um, there, there’s so many reasons for it, but I just pray that [00:31:10] I, and we all stay straight, straighten up and fly.
Yeah. I think it’s what, something that I’ve come to the realization. [00:31:20] I used to think about people falling and people, whatever that they just, I used to think that they turned into something that where they’re just [00:31:30]completely consciously being, um, a menace basically, like they’re, like, they’re like trying to trick people and [00:31:40]consciously trying to steal money or whatever, or consciously trying to make, do something wrong.
And. I think where the problem is, a lot of the [00:31:50] people that fall, like in their mind their intentions are still what they originally were when they started. Somehow it got twisted. Yeah. [00:32:00] And that, to me, that’s the problem is because, like we, as people that are watching it happen, it’s man, this person.
[00:32:10] Isn’t he didn’t just, or she didn’t just turn into a bad person. They’re stumbling and somehow they’ve got off track and, but then you got the other people [00:32:20] that are like, no, I know that person there they’re good at heart and yeah, they are. Most of them still are good at heart. Like they didn’t mean to have an affair.They didn’t mean to launder money, yeah,
yeah. [00:32:30]
Kind of. And they still desire, to be used by God. And so that’s a tricky part to me. And I have a different, after seeing it [00:32:40] happen so many times, I have a completely different concept of what it means to fall, because a long time ago, I thought it was like, Oh, these people are just tricking [00:32:50] people.
They’re not even believers. Trying to get people’s money and trick people and, pull their props and all that stuff. It’s
Full scale rebellion. They’re saying no to God. They’re turning and going the other [00:33:00] direction and really they’re in deception. For the most part.
Now, there are some, there are some who I think probably are going into full scale rebellion, but most like you’re talking about are in [00:33:10] deception and they just don’t see it. They don’t see, like, how can you not see, Solomon with his many wives? At the end, leading him astray.
[00:33:20] How can you not see it? But they don’t see it. And, um, and I think in many cases, the Lord, in many cases, I think the Lord allows [00:33:30] the fall out of grace so that they can come to repentance. Because I think many. When they have their fall they [00:33:40] are sorry. And it forces them into a, Oh, like back to thinking. But some, not all[00:33:50]goodness. Oh, that might be about it. I don’t know if you got Chris of your brain spinning. I [00:34:00] have really good. I love it. Oh, good.
I have no, what time is it?
Quarter after one, two, quarter after one year time. See, I [00:34:10] can’t see my quarter after three year time. Sorry. I can’t
see my clock because of the stuff and I know my battery was about 50%, so I think I’m okay, but I [00:34:20] just don’t want it to shut off.
Oh, sure.
You can edit that part.
Yeah. Yeah. We’ll slice that part out. Is there anything else you’d want to touch on, Chris?
Nah, that’s a ton of [00:34:30] good stuff. I’m still stuck on the, uh, what we were talking about. Should I stay or should I go? Yeah. We’ve answered that question so many times, and I the [00:34:40] way you answered it, I haven’t even thought of, or, not that I haven’t thought of it. Let me give
you another little snapshot here. On that idea of should you stay or should you go, my answer was, starting [00:34:50] at the beginning, what brought you there in the first place? Because if the Lord told you to be there, right? At my church, we get, we do an orientation for new [00:35:00] member prospects, and the first thing we tell them is, there are three contingencies for new members.
Most churches [00:35:10] have one. You have to say that Jesus is Lord. You have to be a Christian, and that’s it. We have three. The first [00:35:20] one is, you have to be a Christian. The second one is, You have to believe that the Lord has called you to our church. [00:35:30] And the third one is we have to believe that the Lord has called you to our church.
There should be a mutual, we, the leadership and the church [00:35:40] and you, the person who’s coming in mutually agree. It’s a covenant. It’s a covenant that you’re supposed to be part of this church. [00:35:50] And so then at the end, let’s say things get shaky for whatever reason. When you are on the outs with the pastor, you’re you, [00:36:00] whatever.
And from a staff perspective, the pastor isn’t letting you do what you think you should be doing and blah, blah, blah. And submitting to authority, by the way, is a huge other one of my [00:36:10] passions, but But when you get to that place and you say it’s time to go because the pastor’s not letting me do my thing.
Wait a minute now. God called you there. Maybe [00:36:20] the pastor is there precisely so you don’t do your thing. Maybe you’re supposed to learn some discipline. But that’s why I say, wait till the Lord says, yeah, now [00:36:30] it’s time. And don’t make it up just so you’re getting out of a tough situation.
It should feel right and ideally you should leave with the blessing [00:36:40] of the church where the church says, you know what we’re sending this person out. They believe God’s saying it’s time. We agree. God is saying it’s time. That’s [00:36:50] so much better the way to go. And I know not every situation is ideal, but I think we get ourselves in a jam by just doing things according to what feels [00:37:00] good.
Thank you so much for listening to this whole episode would love for you to head over to Instagram shoot us a DM Say hey to us hit that bio join our network there are so many ways for you to get plugged into the [00:37:10] church collective and I’m going to be honest if you’ve listened this far here, there’s going to be some even more amazing things.
So I’m just going to tease that. I would love for you to to see everything that we have. If you’d love [00:37:20]information, feel free to DM me specifically either in the network or on Instagram. Tell me you have heard this part and ask me what’s going on and I will tell you all about it. God bless you [00:37:30] today.