Podcast Transcript
Ryan: Welcome to the Church Collective Podcast. In this episode, I had the opportunity to talk to Jonathan and Eric in person, and it was so much fun to just be able to hang out with them. I was really impressed by their heart for scripture and making sure that the songs that we sing in our churches are biblically aligned.
We got into some really heavy stuff and how to lead worship when we are going through difficulty. I think there’s just so much you’re gonna love about this episode. So here.
Jonatan: I think as we
Eric: started, we got it into our hearts maybe two and a half year ago, three years ago, as God kept on breathing on some of the songs that we wrote out of our church that, simulator, we will record an album from our church in Sweden.
Yeah. And as we started to write, we had that, big whiteboard and we would put out like a song list. But as the month passed by, we changed name from like a song list to weapon. There were so many real stories and so many testimonies and things that people were going through, and Gao was just speaking through their songs.
And then at the end of the project this song, other Side came up. Yeah. Which is which is an incredible song. Jonathan and Melody from Young Pri and a couple of other people wrote it in London. And it just made sense to brand the whole album, the side for, for a couple of different reasons.
One, Most of the people listen to our music would probably live on the other side compared to Stockholm. You either live in America or Australia or whatever you live. Yeah. But then also because there’s our other side, I really fully believe that there’s the other side when we’re in kind of Christ.
And I think that’s the essence of what worship is to, fix your attention on something that’s bigger and better, and. more solid than whatever you are going through. I believe that’s our prayer over only songs and all of this album that people would experience on other side. Yeah. When they encounter Jesus.
Yeah.
Jonatan: Okay. Are
Ryan: you like, I’m super curious, like why in English if that’s not your primary language or are all these songs in Swedish first and now we’re on English? Yeah.
Eric: First of all, I think. People are being taught English from, you’re like five or six years old. Yeah. In Sweden, in comb. So everybody speaks English.
Yeah. And then I think, I we’re a global church. Hills Church is a global church. I think we are the most global church in the whole world. If you speak most, and I think in this project we’ve all way, always from the start, wanted to draw from like 40 years of legacy.
Yeah. In a lot of our senior worship leaders and songwriters like Brooke, led Wood, Joel Houston. Benfield, Ruben Morgan and others have been involved in this project. They are. They’re friends and it just made sense for us to include them in this project. So we would have these people to Cora with us, but then we would put like the Starcom flavor Yeah.
On the songs, which is probably, I think like melodies and top line and all of that has pretty natural for us. So yeah, that’s, I guess that’s why
Ryan: it’s English. That’s awesome. And so I heard like before we came in here, like you are Eric that wrote Cornerstone, , .
Jonatan: Yeah, that’s right. That’s . I think you probably
Ryan: I’d, maybe from like a collaborative angle.
Yeah. What’s going on? Like how did that come to be? Because like people wouldn’t think that Cornerstone necessarily came from Sweden. Like they would say that’s clearly Australians. But like maybe speak to that culture of a global.
Jonatan: Writing together. It’s cool story because one of
Eric: the fo, our focus track on this album called Na God is written pretty much on the day, 10 years after we wrote Cornerstone.
And it was me and Ruben Morgan, who’s from Australia. But we met in Stockholm, another Swedish guy called Jonas Myron, I’m sure a lot of people knows about him. We met up in Stockholm 10 years ago. and we wrote Cornerstone. It was a special moment because we had this big massive school shooting in Norway.
And this guy killed almost 90 youth people at the youth camp. He was all scan was in shock. Wow. And then we met him in this old chapel Cathedral in, in Stockholm 10 years ago. And all of us were like, what are you saying? What are we all know people, we know people or know people that are killed in that shooting.
So in, when life is storming and when things cannot be explained, what do you wanna say? , maybe not so much actually what you wanna say, but what do you wanna hold onto and I think that just got cornerstone. To fly. Cause Christ is our cornerstone no matter what we’re going through the storm.
Yeah. He’s Lord of all. So that’s how that was. That was born. And then 10 years later we find ourself in the studio in London and I think Ruben didn’t know. So I got this, the Facebook 10 years anniversary even day. And it’s bro, it’s actually 10 years ago. We joked around about it.
We was said, let’s go in, let’s ride another cornerstone. And funny. This song Not A God, which is our focus track. And in our church these last couple of months, it’s just blowing up. People are singing it in Swahili in, in Spain is in Italian, the Portuguese, Swedish. This song is becoming a new tool and new weapon for our church.
It’s really not a Ephesian chapter three, okay. Which says not a God is able to do. So we literally just took the line and we made a song about it. And it’s yeah. To me it’s such a special song. I believe it’s gonna be, give so much faith to the Battle of Christ.
Ryan: I’d love to hear too so much of the, you’re a guy’s album is like really deeply rooted in scripture.
Could you maybe speak to the young songwriter that’s, listening? Like, why is that
Jonatan: important? , that’s important because it’s only scripture that can change lives. Sure. Melodies and beautiful words. that doesn’t change lives. And it comes, faith comes by hearing and the hearing of the word.
Yeah. We wanted the songs to be simple enough for everyone to be able to sing them right. Their English is your first language. , but we still wanted depth within the worship songs. So we just decided early on we need to root all the songs scripture wise. So a lot of the songs on the album actually is like word by word scripture, right?
Like Now to God is we have another song called Faithful to Forgive. That’s just like word by word and even radical love the course. So I think it comes by that because if you wanna. If you wanna write a worship song, and if you truly wanna want it to affect people’s heart, You’re not gonna do that by beautiful melodies and fancy words.
You’re gonna do it by scripture. So if it’s something I can say to the young writers, you can’t go wrong with scripture. Yeah. Because it’s been around . And it’s something you can build your life on.
Eric: So lot times also, we speak to some , I’m the worship pastor in Sweden. So a lot of times when I’ll speak to younger worship leaders, one of the devices I always give them is if you gotta say something in between songs or whatever, right?
People actually didn’t come to church to hear you speak or think God loud. They came in kind of Christ. So if you wanna say anything, just read scripture in Scripture is always gonna win. Yeah, it’s gonna. And so I think if something we can give away to young worship leaders, Make sure there’s always a scripture there if you say something in between song two or three, whatever.
And I was reading the Bible this morning and it says that God can do mesh bit more. I believe that over you today. That’s such a weapon
Jonatan: to use worship
Ryan: service. Yeah. And probably much more effective than what we think we might need to say . Yeah, I know. I’ve been guilty of that too.
You’re rambling. You’re like, where am I going with this? Yeah, .
Jonatan: Yeah, exactly. We’ve all been there, right? . Yeah. Love
Ryan: to hear so you’re the worship pastor for the Hillsong Church. What does that look like
Jonatan: week to week? That looks a lot of work,
Eric: and and just a lot of, you know, believing the God is just gonna fill up my rosters.
Yeah. And I think we’re all shout, I think everybody can relate to this work. Walking out of the pandemic and people. . Before Covid, I think Sunday was Sunday. Saturday was something else. Now it’s almost like people got two Saturdays, you yeah. Sunday’s a new Saturday and in church is what?
What used to be like priority might just be optional now, right? So I figured like this last year or year and a half, like the you, you have to point people the vision, the why, the cause. This is why we do this. This is why we work. You know what I mean? That and also explaining to people the power of worship and we actually get to do.
Can’t believe we get to do this. We don’t have to do anything, but we get to, you know what I mean? Using words like that has just been incredibly important and but then just believing God that there’s a new, there’s a new, I’ll never forget, couple of those Sundays after the pandemic was over and we filled up the rooms again, it was incredible and it just, Just, I love worshiping everywhere in the car, in the shower, at my room, whatever, but it is nothing compared to like, when the battle cries, they worship me together.
I love that. But yeah, I’m not gonna lie, it’s been tough after the pandemic and for most people listen to this with would agree on that. But I think as we give people the why and like the cost and Yeah. Understand like the weight and the privilege it is, I think,
Jonatan: it’s gonna go forward.
And also I believe. We need to remember what worship is. Yeah. It isn’t more worship if you’re a full band with lights than if you just lead by piano or guitar. For me, worship is always the same, like I get as excited leading worship for a small room with just the guitar. Sure. Until a packed room with full band.
And if you remember that, that makes stuff easier as well because you need to remember. What is worship? That’s not about me, it’s about him. And it’s all getting all the attention to God. So I think that makes, it, makes it easier as well when you remember oh, it’s a midweek service and I’m by myself with the guitar.
It can still be as a strong of a worship moment for everyone in the room as a pack room. And if, because that might change in churches as well. They might not have the full band. , but we need to remember what worship is and it’s, I always come back to the song, that Redmond song, I’m come back to the heart of worship.
But you can’t remind yourself Yeah. Enough of that timeless point.
Ryan: Yeah. How did, I’d love to hear both of you guys’ stories, like how did you get into worship ministry? Like what was your journey like?
Jonatan: I
Eric: I growed up in church, but I left like my faith, like you have to remember like Stockholm in Sweden is super secular.
Yeah. So like for you to be able to be a Christian, it’s pretty big deal. Okay. Like you’re, the problem about probably the only one in your class, probably the only one in your sport team, probably the only one in your like neighborhood that’s a Christian. Yeah. Okay. So being a Christian is it takes a stand and I think I didn’t have like just the courage to do that as I growed up.
So I left. and then just, I had this one side of my world that life just went really good music, and like all of that went really well. But then you have my heart and it’s just it was just so nice. Yeah, and then it came so like that distance in between like what the world saw, but also what was in my heart.
After a while I just couldn’t live with it, so I was actually suicidal. Wow. And then one night I went out to this old church that my parents. Was in, and 3:00 AM in the morning. I was sitting by the piano. I was like, God, if you don’t show up tonight, I’m gonna take my own life. I don’t wanna live anymore.
And God just showed up. There was no preaching or nothing, like no one kind of the three say, but God was there. Yeah. And I was, when God came, I just climbed under the piano because I was so afraid. I was just shaken. And then, the presence were still there in the room. So after 30 minutes, I jumped up, sat by the piano, started to play, and.
Just crying and just all that pain and everything just went away and God just filled me in that moment. I just know this is, and I also heard like this voice in some, it’s on my heart saying Eric, this is what you call, what I call you to do. You’re called to honor me and I’ve, I’ve given you talents to play music and write music.
It’s to give all the glory back to me. Yeah. And that was the first time in li in my life that I just felt satisfaction. A hundred percent. This. I know where I am. Yeah. I know what I’m created to do. And since that day, it’s been up and downs, but I always go back to that moment and I always know that that’s my calling.
Yeah.
Jonatan: Yeah. So that’s my story. Wow. . That’s good. Yeah. I have a slightly different story I’m an as son, I’m a pastors kid. Yeah, I grew up in church and my dad was both pastor and worship leader and so I’ve been growing up with music. Yeah. And hi. He he was leading worship and I was growing up with that.
So that’s is always been home for me. And then during my youth years and stuff like that, I was signed with with a band and I was playing and we were about to hit big. At least that was what we thought. But it never felt as, Home as Worship did. Sure.
Ryan: I say, so this band was not
Jonatan: like worship music?
No. It was just like a rock roll band. The Killer’s vibe. Yeah, . Yeah. So it was great, right? It was, but, and it was nothing wrong with it. It’s just it didn’t come as natural as leading worship for me. It’s, as I said earlier, like independent on what environment and what, like setting I’m leading worship.
For me, it’s. , I dunno what it is. It’s like I hit a button and it’s just full on for me. And I love it so much and I every time I’ve lead in worship I’m I’ve given it my all. Like every time. Because that’s what it is for me. It’s just giving it my all. Yeah. And when you go through seasons that.
Heavier or I’ve just realized like worship is always my safe place. And even when I don’t know how to pray or what to pray, like I can still sing and I can still worship and it’s just, yeah. I don’t know what it is. I just love it. Yeah,
Ryan: I’d love to like maybe pick out a little bit. I know the week to week grind of leading worship.
I could imagine a lot of guys listening to this saying like, I don’t feel like that. Yeah. Every week where it’s like an honor and a privilege to worship, like sometimes it feels like I’m connecting with God. Other times it just feels like I’m just doing weak. Yeah. What do you guys do to Try to keep it fresh. Try to keep that relationship, there.
Eric: I always think to think of. , it can never be a routine. , it’s like, God he wants like a new song, but sometimes it’s not a new song, but it’s like a, just a new expectation of what God can do. And anytime like that’s been like average expectation that’s been like, if I’m like an our environment anyways, like it’s been challenged.
I can, like, when you ask this question, I think about this time I went out Australia to be on his worship. This is one of my first tours I did. This is 10 years ago. I’m super nervous and I’ve rehearsed all the songs, so I was pretty confident the way life, I know the songs. Then I walked up to Darling Cche back at the days who wrote Shout to The Lord, and I said, always said, they’re like, if there’s any songs, Darlene, that you’re not knowing who, who should lead.
I can lead them. And so I was full of confident. He’s yeah, okay, it’s good. And then we found out Europe and we stopped in Singapore to do like a worship night for Joseph Prince and his church. And I remember I would practice all these songs and then just before we walked into the night, like Darlene Cze is changing some of the songs to some old songs that I’ve never heard about
And so like in the, just in the backstage before walking up on stage, I meet Ruben Morgan and Ruben selected to hear the Darlene change some songs. And I said, she did what? And and then he just laughed and he’s I think it’s an awesome idea, . And then he, and then Ruben said, and then I went to Ruben.
I said, why are you laughing? He’s Darlene said this. If anyone thinks this is a bad idea, just laugh and say, I think it’s an awesome idea. And I think it, it told me so much, like to be like flexible to always look for the new and like Darlene who’s been leading worship like a million times, she always looked for something new and not to be in a routine. And it taught me to have that spirit when I’m leading worship as well. Just to look for new things. Look for new, God could do something new in this service. Can I see something, God, that I have never said seen before.
And having that mentality, I think helps a lot not to make, have a routine mentality. Yeah,
Jonatan: sure. If that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. For me it, it’s also about I decided early on, me and my wife . need to be brutal, honest with God always. Yeah. If we don’t understand something, if we’re upset with something, if we’re angry with something, if we’re sad about something.
We, we need to tell him . Yeah. He can handle it. So I think sometimes not getting stuck in the routine thing, like Eric said, is being honest with God. I struggle with this, or, find something in the set of the songs you’re doing that you can hold onto, that you can connect to what you’re going through.
Yeah. If it’s frustration, hit, even if it’s just a bridge of the set or if it’s a chorus of the set Put your honesty into that. Yeah. And go, God, this is where I’m at. This is what frustrates me right now, or this is what I’m struggling with. Yeah. I’m gonna leave. And just go up and worship you right now.
And I don’t think, I don’t think we’ve
Eric: got, I don’t think God has a problem with our doubts. Sure. Or and one of the songs on this album, and I mean it is, came out of him and his wife losing their youngest son. Oh. And I walked, together with you. I was there the same day he died and we, I did the funeral.
I was like, the. Moment we’ve ever had together. And just, seeing you walk through that and as a, as his friend, but also as his pastor. Some Sundays there were songs, man, you remember that? You were like, I cannot lead this song today. Like these words, I cannot say. And we changed songs or I had someone else coming up and lead worship, right?
But then out of this moment If we wrote this song called Sing Hallelujah. It’s on the album, and I don’t know if you wanna tell them, but it’s just,
Jonatan: My
Ryan: gosh, I’m sorry to yeah. Hear all
Jonatan: this, but here we go. Yeah. No, it’s, it was obviously the hardest thing. Yeah. We’ve gone through and we our third child was diagnosed with a uncurable disease, and we pretty much got a death sentence with Yeah.
With the doctor saying, we don’t know. , you might have him three months, or you might have him 12 months. Yeah. But more than that, we don’t know. Sure. And we gotta have him six and a half months and then Brandon died. Yeah. And I remember that that was one of the moments where we went we need to be brutal honest because Yeah.
Because this is too hard otherwise. And I remember having problem praying, but that’s what I’ll mention, like worship is, The thing where I always come back to, even if it’s simple words or a simple song but then there was a wild where I didn’t write songs because I didn’t know what to say. And then when we started writing again, I just really felt like how powerful it is to sing through it all.
Yeah. And leave questions and doubts. To God, and there’s a line in the song going because it’s a metaphor for Mary at the tomb. Yeah. And it says let your tears fall down and dry. And that’s how I felt like, it doesn’t say Stop your crying or don’t cry.
It says Go ahead and cry. Yeah. But let them fall to the ground and dry. And then it was me, Eric, and a guy called Wilhelm who wrote the song in Willem, had this draft for the cor for the bridge. Where it says sin, where’s your power? Death? Where’s your sting? Hell, where’s your victory?
Yeah, we know. We know who won. And I remember Eric looking at me going, will he sing this? Can we sing this? Yeah. But I also felt like I believed every word, and I’m not going to let death has its final victory or its final saying, because I know who won. No, the truth. , there was such a beautiful moment.
Just we, we released a song on a Friday is it three weeks ago? . And on that Sunday I was leading, worshiping in Hillsong Denmark. And there was a, this guy next to me, and he I could see he was moved in a way, but I’ve never met him before. And afterwards he said, like me and my wife has, because we had a testimony connected to the song when we released the song.
They heard a part of our story and he said me and my wife has been listening to that on repeat because we lost our child. And to sing this song with you on this Sunday I can’t explain how much it mean to me because he, we were talking about it and we said, if we’re being honest, there’s more people in church who don’t get their miracle or might not see the miracle they’re hoping for or praying for.
Yeah. Than. the one who does. Yeah. So we see these like big testimonies in church and I love them. It’s great because it’s enco encouraging, but sometimes what he said, like for me it meant so much for you to go, oh, he didn’t get his miracle. We didn’t get our miracle. But he’s still worshiping so then I can worship as well.
Yeah. And I think it’s such a a power. And we, we actually called the song, speaking of the weapon list, like you mentioned earlier, we called this song Sing, hallelujah, the Victory Song and how it became a weapon. And even just days after we released the song, getting like dms from literally all over the world, people saying, I needed this, I need, it was so encouraging Yeah.
For you to be so honest with with that. So it’s it’s just beautiful how a song. Can what a song can do. Sure. When it comes from a right place and from a, from right heart. No, it’s killer.
Ryan: I I think you touch on something that we run into in all of our churches all the time where we’re like believing and praying for the miracle, and then a lot of times we don’t have them.
Yeah. I guess just let’s talk a little more about that. Like what, how would you encourage, like you said, most of us. Dealt with loss. Like I’m a little older now. I’ve had some fairly difficult things in my life, but 20 years ago, having not faced some of that, it you’re just full of all that energy where God’s gonna miracle everything in front of me.
And it doesn’t always happen like that. No. Like what en what encouragement do you have for both sides of
Jonatan: that? Yeah. I always come back to that with being honest with God. Yeah. And trusting him with him having an another perspective than we do. And, but I’m not saying it’s easy and I’m saying it has moments where it takes all you got, right?
Just shutting the door of kind of doubt or despair or unbelief. But that won’t help you in the long. either way. So I think it’s it’s just a hard thing, but I think just trusting God and being honest with him. Yeah. And even being like honest with the disappointment of not life didn’t turn out the way I thought it would.
Sure. Because that’s the reality of things. And you just need to trust that he has his way, he has another perspective and just trusting his.
Eric: And I think as a worship leader, let’s not be afraid of being transparent on this. I think it’s, yeah. To me as a worship leader, it is helped me like the things that made me the man.
I am the pastor, I am the father, I am the husband. I am. It’s not the wins. It’s not Yeah. It’s the dark moment. It’s like when I don’t know, when I come with my doubt and my questions to God. Yeah. And I’ve been pretty transparent with that. And I’ve written so many songs out of. and it’s made me the man I am.
So I think God has never promised us to have a life only on the top right. But his promised to walk with us. To develop death. And I think as worship leaders sometimes we think the worship is just happy clap, blah, blah. It can be happy clappy also, it could be like a radical joy zone.
Yeah. When the joy comes from in be in from, from the inside. Yeah. But also sometimes it’s a worshiper. I think this, the generation that’s growing up. They don’t want plastic. Plastic. They don’t want fake. Yeah. They want rawness readiness. That’s what we see in aspirin now. And other things like, and I think that’s what the generation are craving at the moment, like just real raw, worship.
Yeah. And I think that’s, so that’s e curion, if that’s any encouragement to young worshipers do that. Don’t be afraid of being transparent and showing
Jonatan: people you are. Sure. But also Have also the courage to lift your eyes. Yeah. Above it all. Because there’s a true you can always you can get stuck in that mentality as well.
Being too, like we need to sometimes, even though it hurts, we need to sing stuff over our life. Sure. That might feel, not it, not, yeah. It’s not there yet, but I believe it. You need to do that as well. we really felt like when we were writing the Joy song we re we really felt oh, it’s been a heavy season,
We need to, we need some joy. We need some simple and it’s almost, it is on the, like the, we have the hymn, the George down in we have sample of that, but that was what we wanted. Like a simplicity of going it feels a bit stupid almost singing this, but you need to sometimes.
Yeah. Because that’s that’s how you pull yourself out of, right? Yeah.
Ryan: I don’t know. No, that’s fantastic. , I, my, my mind immediately, so spent 20 years in, worship pastoring at the church before I came over here to do teaching. And I would love to hear your guys’ response to the senior pastor that may not want his worship leader to be that raw.
Like they, they want that happy clappy and they don’t like, they’re not necessarily like malicious about it, but they, they don’t want all that emotion in their worship services. Yeah. Like how would you encourage them to allow their worship leaders some of that. ,
Jonatan: I think trust
Eric: is earned.
Yeah. And I think as I was a young worship leader, I think the but righteousness. So my senior pastor, he didn’t give me as mushroom as he does now. And I think I’ve, I’m over the year has built that trust, not only with him or her, but also with the congregation. To be vulnerable, to be like, yeah, this is what I’m going through at the moment.
Same thing with Jonathan. And as he. Talks about this archer, like he’s built that trust over 10 years with our Hillsong congregation globally. So people know him, people know his story. They know he’s not gonna leave next week and he’s not, like I should. So I think that’s some, that’s a, we need to know that we’re building that trust as and as worship leaders.
I think that’s up to us, to build that trust with our right senior leadership that we’re standing under. So I think that’s extremely. , but then also have these conversations and invest into that conver, in that conversation or in that relationship with your senior pastor. Just invest in that.
Buy him a coffee, buy him a lunch. Buy him whatever. If he loves hockey, go a hockey with him, . And maybe in, in between periods, just talk to him, ask him questions or tell him what’s on your heart. And then I think out of that trust is gonna be built. Yeah.
Ryan: What? I’d love to hear just more thoughts on Asbury and like what this next generation is doing.
It’s been interesting seeing the internet come with all sides of opinions on Asbury when it’s really just young people worshiping the Lord. Yeah. But I’d love to hear just your, like you said, like God’s doing something. What do you guys think? Trying to teach his church right now.
Jonatan: Yeah. I really believe, like what you said earlier, and I see it, I have a teenage daughter. , and she she wants she wants brutal honesty. . Yeah. Without me like talking about it too much. She wants she loves the worship when it’s honest and pure and she loves preaching when it’s honest and pure.
But as soon as it gets like you, Messed up with the other stuff. She’s I’m not buying this. So I think that’s what I love about that young generation. I think that’s what we’re seeing. Yeah. We’re seeing like and coming back to what we talked about earlier worship can still be as honest with a guitar as with a full band.
Like it isn’t the one or the other. But you can still get as misled. by leading with just a guitar as is with the full band. Sometimes we make it like more spiritual, having it simply or, and easier and Right. Not as spiritual with the whole thing going on. But that’s not the heart of it.
I think. Like it’s the heart behind the worship. Sure. And I think that’s what we’re seeing and I think we’re just gonna see that spread more and more with the younger generation and that spreading up with people like. Not buying all the stuff around they want. They want Jesus.
They want God, they want a pure worship. And I think, and I truly believe that God will bless that every time. Wow. Yeah.
Eric: We, I love it, . I think it’s great. Yeah. And I think it’s but it’s easy for us to make anything like religion. So I’m saying I love what that’s happening to us.
It resonates. We live in a part of the world, which is super secular. The c Stockholm is the most secular city in the world. And we’re doing the rele, like the release of the album. We’re doing that at a bar at the club. And it takes, so it takes so much to stand up and worship mu like, and write worship music and sing the music because you mean your friends and people at your neighbors.
They look at what you post on Instagram or Facebook and they’re like what do you doing? Are you worshiping something else? And you say, you. So it takes so much courage. So like for us, worship has always cost us a lot. Yeah. It’s it cost us a lot. That’s not a lot. People are standing up and imp applauding us for it.
Yeah, we don’t,
Jonatan: and
Ryan: I over here, that’s not how it is,
Jonatan: bro.
Eric: Yeah. . So it becomes very real. Yeah. It’s not a show. It’s real. If you not, it’s not realty if the price is too high. Yeah. And that’s what I feel with Ashbury as well, and I like that. I love that and I encourage that. And I hope that’s gotta be just a.
Wind for the church globally.
Jonatan: Yeah. Look,
Ryan: talk a little bit about what has it been like doing church in a very secular world? Because again, that’d be most of our audiences here in America. And like I said, we can go, I could go visit, 15 churches in the scope of a weekend and just hit all their different times and Yeah, all of that let’s just hear.
Jonatan: Yeah, we were talking about it yesterday, like if you would ask any random, like you. Out here in the States, and you would ask him if he knows he or she what worship is. They’re familiar with the word, right? Like it’s not the same in Sweden. Like they, they wouldn’t know what worship is. The same is I go, okay, is that a religious thing?
Is it a church thing? Yeah. So it’s been, but we’ve been seeing . We’ve been seeing some amazing things happening with our church with like music being, and worship being such a weapon in people’s hearts, yeah. And we’ve heard it so many times, people coming to church and Is this church?
Yeah. Can it sound like this? Could it be like this? So I think. I’m for one. I love leading worship in full band with the full thing because we’ve experienced how it breaks barriers and it helps people to encounter God in a way they’re not used to at all. Yeah. In Sweden and the culture where we’re from.
That’s why I think I love worship music so much because that’s, At least what I feel like the way in to people’s lives. And then you get the word and you get the teaching. And so just as what our church is seeing, having multiple campuses, that’s not a common thing. Yeah. In our country and in, in Europe at all.
So it’s it’s amazing. Gracious
Ryan: And so many different angles to go. . Yeah. Are maybe somewhat selfishly so I’m writing a dissertation about online worship. Oh yeah. As I’m teaching and stuff. I’d love to Interesting. Just hear your guys’ opinion on online worship . Do you guys stream your services? Like what? Like
Eric: I’m keen to hear what you came up with.
I think like worship music is, someone said to us with this album, I mean it’s Congregation of Worship, someone said, this is not music that you listen to. This is something you participate. Yeah. And I think what I found with the online worship, it’s great, but it’s, you don’t, like most of my friends, even myself during the pandemic, I didn’t stand up and like
Jonatan: totally yeah. You’re just your phone or
Eric: watching tv, prince Guy was there. And the, the kids want something or went off to, grab some coffee or Right. Brushed my teeth or whatever. You know what I mean? Is that, and that’s to me that’s, that’s okay in a season where we cannot gather.
But I think it’s not, yeah, it’s not what, where worship is, and I think it’s just the Bible says our iron sharpens iron. Yeah. So sometimes when I come to. and I don’t feel like worship. This guy is just on fire and he’s leading me and he’s and I sense that because I’m in the room. It’s like I, so I got poured into it.
Sure. Or vice versa. I come to church and I’m like on fire and the guy next to me just need me to be on fire. And as he sees, so she sees me worship, they get drawn into it as well.
Jonatan: That aspect of like string
Ryan: to
Jonatan: each other with I think so,
Eric: yeah. So I think there’s, sometimes.
Online has been a great tool just to stay connected. I But it cannot be replaced with what I think like being in the room is, and I even
Jonatan: if you see, I don’t have any statistics to this or how do you say it, but but even if you look at YouTube and you see what worship songs that has like really high streams it’s not the cool music video. . It’s not those type of good point. It’s like the big rooms, right? Where people they want to be part of that, so they put it on the screen. Yeah. And it’s like a huge room where they want that feeling as at least that’s what I see. Yeah. So I think and that’s where YouTube and is great because there’s so many people and I just recently find, found out this because a friend of mine told me, because we had like super.
High streams on a film, on YouTube, and I was like, who’s on YouTube? And he. There’s tons of people are on YouTube. There’s parts of the world that they want to they can’t afford a Spotify account. They can’t apo, but they, YouTube is free. So that’s where you connect with so many people. And that’s when I got it.
But on those films, it’s almost every time like the big rooms because that’s what people are missing. Yeah. And that’s what you want to be a part of. Yeah. So I think it can be a great tool, for reaching for people that you can’t reach. Amazing. But you can’t compare it to being in the room.
Sure.
Ryan: Speaking of statistics, there’s a I think it’s, Barna says like maybe in America at least, only about 40% of people come to church twice a month. Yep. They’re lucky to come once I’m Wow. I’m wondering, is that the same with you guys or is it because it’s so costly, are like your church members coming pretty regularly?
You guys running into a similar, I’d
Eric: love to say that they’re more hardcore, but don’t think they are. It’s in our, in know, we’re like one to maybe 1.5% of our population goes to church. Wow. But but they come every second, every third. Yeah. I’m happy if he comes once a month .
Jonatan: That’s about
Ryan: it.
Jonatan: Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan: It’s
Jonatan: just, it’s been interesting to see.
Ryan: With online being there, like I know got friends in church where there’s good point. They’ve cut their stream because they don’t want their people to not come. It was like, it’s like a, is that the right thing to do? Because now you’re not reaching people, but they want ’em to.
Yeah. It’s just, it’s interesting. I get it to see what this church or the global church is doing.
Jonatan: Good
Eric: point. Yeah, I think what we try to do is, . It’s, we’ll make on online availability’s out there. Yeah. I think that’s been the strategic for Hillsong globally as well. Absolutely. Yeah. But there’s some things that you cannot get online, right?
Sometimes some, ministry time or service at the end, or we do prayer things, so we’re like, we had a couple of new songs, whatever we, so we leave out a couple of things. Yeah. So you have to be in the room to experience that. That’s we’ve been what we’ve been doing, but like the work or the worship could be in there.
Jonatan: Yeah. That’s. .
Ryan: What is on the horizon here for Stockholm Worship?
Jonatan: Yeah we’re just releasing our album so this is the first time Yeah. People will hear our music and hopefully, like our prayer has always been that these songs would put words to people’s seasons.
Yeah. And the prayers they need to pray. And the songs they need to song. Because sing, because I’ve encountered that so many times. Singing songs that I didn’t know I needed to sing until I sung it . If so I hope that this album will, will speak to people and it will they will encounter God through it and not just listen to it, but sing the songs and see them change things and.
and hopefully we get to meet people as well. Playing the songs and Yeah, singing together and so I guess that’s what, yeah. , that’s what’s yeah. And we’re really excited for our we’re we flew out here. Monday because we were both leading worship on, on, on the Sunday. And that’s how we It works.
Yeah. That’s how it works. We flew out Monday, that’s why the trip was a thousand stops. And that’s why it’s a thousand stops on the way back home. And then we’re but we’re really excited about our the place where Eric was mentioned we’re having our release and speaking of the killers that.
That’s where they had their first gig in Sweden that was in that venue. It’s a small venue, but we feel like we’re super pumped about leading worship there and doing some of the songs. Yeah. That’s killer. I think
Ryan: A lot of people see guys like you at the churches that they hope to be at in the future, or like it’s always like the aspirations to come be a part of the big Hillsong or elevation or anything like that , what encouragement would you have towards them?
Maybe not saying you’ll never make something like that, but just like how what kind of encouragement would you have for someone as they’re dreaming for major things and maybe feeling disenfranchised with the little that
Jonatan: they’re doing? ? I could start by saying two things that might not be so helpful, but I think the first thing is consistency.
And I’ve really experienced what Eric was talking about. I was so frustrated at sometimes with leading worship, and I felt like we did a great job, but the song wasn’t like the church wasn’t, the church wasn’t there. And it was like, they don’t know you good enough yet. You need to, they need to see you do life.
They need to see you be there. And so it’s consistency. Yeah. So that’s one of the things. The other thing is the hardest part because it’s train yourself to not. Because if you want it, you might not be the right person on the spot because like you might be longing for the wrong stuff.
That’s what I’ve, this is nothing we’ve this has just happened because we’ve been doing church, we’ve been writing for our church. We’ve been leading worship and I think sometimes if you want it too much, it might be tricky because I think. , you need to remember that. Like nothing of this is for us.
Yeah. We need to shift all the focus we get onto him and if we fail by that, we we missed the missed the point of it. So consistency and not want it, it’s too boring. A hundred
Eric: percent. Yeah. And I’m just, I don’t need a third point. I’m just, Re from what you saying because that, I think that’s the thing.
I think it’s just worship is, was not anyways about us. And as a reminded quite a lot this week, as we do this interview, we’re sitting in the at, at the offices of Capital Music, I was here 12 or 13 years ago with a management and running my old band and trying to get record deal and signed and all of that.
Yeah. And as we almost got that. I had this sense in my heart. No. I’m, I’m called to build a local church in Stockholm, so I believe I left it. Yeah. I walked away from record deal and went back and built this local church. And because I just loved the church and I just loved the worship and I just didn’t wanna do the things that we talked about doing here 12 or 13 years ago.
And fast forward 10, 12 years forward, I’m. , but this was never the goal. Yeah. And this is not the goal, we’re happy to be here, but the goal is to see churches all over the world lift up the name of Jesus. And that’s why we put on this album. We wrote an album for the church. So if someone says, listen to this, God, what should I do with this?
This is an album for the church. It’s not a devotional worship album. It’s now, this is an album for your Sunday morning. It’s an album for your Sunday night or your midweek service. Yeah. That’s what it is. Sure. And that’s our. And so so I, I guess I encourage people to listen to this, find that passion, a passion that’s not about you, right?
Something bigger than you and just. Feed that passion, practice that pa passion, get better. Yeah. I’ve seen him written writing songs for 10 years in our world, but now finally like the, these church is starting to sing it just to keep on going.
Jonatan: And then there
Ryan: wasn’t an intent 10 years ago to write them to you’re writing them for your church
Jonatan:
No, we needed to sing these songs. And even these songs are songs like that, that we needed to sing. Yeah. And I think like why we’re encouraged by, Talking about it is because I think there’s a lot of people that need to sing some of these songs. Yeah. And I think they’ve gone through similar seasons that we’ve had and that’s our hope and dream with it.
Thank you so much for listening
Ryan: to this week’s episode. Would you go over to Instagram, shoot a dm? We would love to chat with you.