Transcript:
Ryan Loche: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Church Collective Podcast. In this episode, myself and Chris had the opportunity to talk to Benjamin Hastings about his self-titled album, which is really just a journey for Benjamin of songwriting, for seeing like what the Lord has done in and through his life. And it was just, wow, what an incredible conversation.
He’s got a ton of insight into just a songwriting process, into, um, being able to wrestle with the Lord on big concepts and knowing that God can see you through it. So I think you’re gonna be encouraged by this. I know myself and Chris were so here.
Benjamin Hastings: Album is art. Uh, finally feels like I’ve been working on this forever.
Um, I think the first time I kind of really started talking about, it’s probably five years ago and then probably three years ago actually started working on it. And, um, and yeah, so it’s, I mean, it’s really long. It’s like 25 songs, , and that’s kind of because, so as I said, I mean, it’s working on for three years, so they’re kind of accumulated, but.
But also [00:01:00] because as I was, um, I guess I, the last three years really, I, I find myself kind of just going through a lot of different things. I, I was wrestling with God a lot about my faith and, um, about a lot of things that he says he is. And, um, and yeah, so I kind of find myself in this spiral of kind of confusion and, and diet.
Um, but at the same time, I’m like still, you know, I still do what I do for work, if that makes sense. Um, there’s still the practical, like I’m touring in, uh, South America with United singing these songs and. That kind of, I spiraled me further where I was having this like full imposter syndrome kind of moment where I was like, if these people knew what was going on in my head, they probably wouldn’t want me to be doing this.
But I’m, you know, I’m trying my best to be sincere and, and do it in all honesty and integrity. And really, I, I think in hindsight I can look back at that and say, [00:02:00] Well, I was just exercising faith in those moments, but it, it made me, it felt really weird and like it was a big. And so, so much of the record actually came out of that, uh, dichotomy of, um, and the record fails like that.
I think, you know, like one song is a worship song and then the next song is like, God, are you there? And then the next song is like a worship song. And the next song is like, I think you’re there. It’s like, uh, It’s, it’s kind of all of those things, um, pushed up beside each other. And, and I guess another reason why it took so long is because, um, I didn’t wanna release it while I was still, I guess in the worst of that, of that place.
Cause I, I remember my, he’s my, my buddy Chris call me and he’d be like, you know, like, Bro, when you gonna release the record? When you gonna release the record? And I was like, Man, I wanna, But if, and I’ve got the song, it’s probably like 10 songs that I could release right now. And. I was like, if I do, this is gonna be the most depressing record of all time
So like, I was like, I’ll do these songs, but there needs to be some light at the [00:03:00] end of this tunnel. And thankfully, um, and thankfully there is, thankfully it’s like, um, I guess the, the grand resolve in it is that like, you know, I’m gonna get through this and that’s, that’s a song and at the very end also help me God.
Yeah. And. And Yeah. And there’s a, there’s a line, Sorry I’m rambling, but there’s a line right at the start that kind of, which I wrote really in the, in the heart of everything, which says, If fifth is a fight, well I’m gonna win. Hmm. And, um, I feel like, uh, that speaks to what the record is and it, it kind of is me kind of staying in the ring through the, through the, the ups and downs of crazy life and yeah, kinda.
I’m, I’m really grateful to have the song. I’m grateful for everyone that went on that journey with me. And, um, I’m sorry to have the album. That feels weird to say , uh, and yeah.
Ryan Loche: My goodness. That I, I mean, just, yeah, I, I wasn’t aware of like that, like I think that’s going to [00:04:00] be incredibly encouraging for so many worship leaders to just.
Hey, if Benjamin Hastings is like wrestling with God and God meets him and like, you know, speaks to him through that, like, well maybe there’s hope for me. Cuz man, I, that’s a, um, I mean that’s a common theme right now, uh, of just a lot of people wrestling with it all. Um, and sadly a lot of people leaving, you know,
Benjamin Hastings: from it.
That completely actually my, Cause the whole album’s a bit of an overshare, to be honest. And some of this stuff as I’m, as I’m just putting it out, I was like, Do I wanna say this? Like, is this too much? Um, but I, my real honest hope is for those people that you know, like, or people like me that at the time I guess that they just feel a little less crazy.
Yeah. Are a little more human or a little, It’s like, okay, I’m not. There’s a line in Song Fifth is, um, it starts to like, I’m not a lost sheep, I just feel alone in the flock. [00:05:00] Hmm. And, um, and that to me is kind of, it’s, that’s, it’s, that’s for those people. I mean, it was for me at the time, but it’s kind of like that’s my real heart behind it, is those people that are finding themselves in the fringes, finding themselves pushed towards the fringe fringes, but they still feel like, No, there’s a way for me to.
Have these feelings and kind of reconstruct my faith and, and however I, I need to at this moment. Um, Sorry that came my wrong, but you, you know what I’m trying to say? Like Yeah. Get to the kind of rebuild so that I have something that’s gonna last me for, for the next little while. Yeah. And, um, for there’s people to, uh, you know, not feel alone in that.
Cause I think I, I did a little bit. I felt alone. I felt like it. You gotta be like a fifth preacher confident, or you gotta like be really cynical. And I was like, where’s the, where’s that middle? Where you’re like, , right? Where’s that middle? You’re not like bashing everything, but [00:06:00] you also are like accepting that maybe everything’s not a hundred percent right.
Sure. So yeah, that’s what I was going for. My goodness. Yeah. When did you, when did you start writing it? Uh, I mean, yeah. Right middle of 2019. So right in the middle of that was when that tour was that I referred to in South America. And um, that was kind of where it all started. I mean, I have things, I have some songs on there that I’ve been working on for about 10 years that just kind of eventuated finally after a long time.
Um, but I would say actively working, make, I’m making it a buddy of work 2019 and then I started recording, uh, started 21. I think in Sydney, um, no, started 20, What year was last year? No, 21. There we
Ryan Loche: go. And it all, it’s all blurred at this point.
Benjamin Hastings: Oh, it’s such a blur. So
Christopher Bellamy: you’re writing, you’re writing this through Covid?
Benjamin Hastings: [00:07:00] Yeah. Yeah. Which probably didn’t help either. Wow. and, um, Yeah.
Christopher Bellamy: Were you, were you collaborating with anybody, like with any writers or were you like, were you doing this remote?
Benjamin Hastings: Yeah, so I do, I mean, every song except for a couple of little, um, there’s a couple of little, like short, at least I wrote most of them myself.
But, um, yeah, I worked with a lot of people on this. Um, it’d be hard to even list them all, but I worked with my, like the boys from United, so Joel and Dylan, she doesn’t help produce a lot of it. Um, Iden, he’s a good buddy of mine, so fielding. I wrote with from in Nashville. When I, when I got over here, I wrote with, um, Hank Bentley a lot.
He was really instrumental in getting it over the line. He produced a bit as well. Uh, David, sorry, my phone’s and, um, who else? [00:08:00] There’s song there with Brian Far. There’s a song there. I mean, there really is probably, I, there’s probably about 30 writers on there. Um, but I, like, I really. Co-writing. And to me it’s kind of the more, the merrier.
Like if it’s making a song better, I’ve never been opposed to as many people as we need on there. Like Eden, which is the one I was saying, took me like 10 years. I mean, I think there’s seven writers on that. So, um, and so I’m really grateful to all those guys for, for doing that and for all being willing to kinda, you know, dilute it to seven people.
Yeah. Um, but, um, But yeah, I’m really proud of where it came out. And so I think, oh yeah, Brandon’s on that song as well. Um, yeah, I dunno. Sorry. There’s a lot. I should probably get a list everyone.
Christopher Bellamy: When, uh, where’d you record it? Like where’d you end up tracking it?
Benjamin Hastings: Yeah, so that’s the other thing about this.
It’s kinda interesting it everywhere. [00:09:00] So we started in Sydney, so five of the songs kind of started there. Sounds like Homeward and Father’s blessing. They’re pretty much all done in Sydney. But then some of the stuff meant a lot of it was in Nashville, some of it was in la um, some of it was in Orange Kin was kind of la And then, um, some of it was in London while I was, we were in Ireland last, um, we went there to see my parents end to switch over our visas and then we ended up getting stuck there for four months cause the embassy closed.
So, We did, I ended up kind of having to do a bunch of it in Ireland, which was actually really fun and sweet. I wrote a ton of it. And, um, in this little like shad thing, my parents have who they turned to India’s studio for me, which was really nice and did a bunch of it in there and with a, with a friend, an old friend of mine’s studio called fra.
Um, I didn’t, uh, I know where he is. I near, near, It’s not Neary. [00:10:00] Sorry for, if you’re hearing this. It’s called Safe Place Studios. I wanna give ’em the plug, but I can’t remember exactly where we are in Ireland and, uh, bit in London, which was actually really fun as well to do some vocals there. But yeah, it was, it was kind of everywhere.
I’m trying to get it over the line at the end where you have like, The guy mixed it. Ben Win Cup, he’s in Sydney, and the producer would be in Nashville and then I’m in la So trying to get like a time zone where we could all talk to each other was an absolute nightmare. Like he would, he would mix it through the day and then I’d jump on a call with him at like 12 at night.
But by that point, it’s already two in the morning in Nashville. So it just was crazy those last couple of weeks, um, with the producer, producer. Well, it was kind of, honestly, there was so many, so Chis, um, produced on a lot of them and kind of ended up being a bit of a glue, even where there was other producers, he kind of statused a bit of an umbrella just to try to tie the whole thing together on, on a lot of them.
And then on on other ones, um, Hank, Hank Bentley did a lot of them [00:11:00] himself. Uh, I’ll give you the list of producers cuz they’re all amazing. So, uh, yeah, Myra. Hank Bentley, David Leonard, um, Ben Tan did a bunch. Um, Judah, uh, co-produced one of them. And I’m, Everyone, anyone. And then, sorry. Then, and DMAC kind of came in and did some of the extra stuff.
Um,
I think that’s everyone. I hope I haven’t missed anyone, but yeah, like everybody, it’s crazy
Christopher Bellamy: when such a huge network between like Hillsong people and like CCM Nashville people. Like I don’t even know how you would pick who you’re gonna work
Benjamin Hastings: with, you know? Yeah. And I kind of did it. That was . I was like, Everyone for being involved.
We were actually talking about that. We had a little celebration on the bus last night when it turned midnight and it came out. And um, and that was one of the things we talked [00:12:00] about, the fact that I think I was looking around the bus, like trying to. Gonna like, thank a couple of people. And then I realized like every single person on this spot contributed in some way, shape, or form, which was actually really cool.
Like I’m, I’m really willing that everyone was able, was willing to just kind of throw in and do some stuff. Like, even like Ja and Crocker from United came in and sang some bvs for me on the last couple of days. And, um, there’s a lot of little bits like that. So it was really, it was really fun. It actually really collaborative.
I
Ryan Loche: was. I was listening through. It’s like some of the songs this morning was fantastic, but I, my attention got caught by, uh, Nel Grove, which I think not a whole lot of people would know what that is. Like. You got any insight to like, like specifically naming that, that like, talk a little bit about that song or even, I mean, it’s
Benjamin Hastings: like, Yeah, I mean, that song is one of the ones I was kinda scared to put on, Um, that.
It’s called Cathedral of an Elder Globe, and which kind of sounds like a Lord of the Rings book that didn’t [00:13:00] make it. Um, it, uh, Elder Grove is, uh, it’s one of the places where Giant Co has grown in, uh, Northern California. And so, um, and so I was kind of double dipping. I wrote a song a couple years ago for Hillstone called Seasons, and so I was kind of double dipping on the Sequoia metaphor and.
And that’s always really al It’s, it’s a bit of a commentary on, um, well, like our church has gone through a lot in the last couple of years and, uh, that is kind of my commentary on it and I’m real. I could, I could dive in, but I’m really
Ryan Loche: No, that’s cool. Yeah. Cause I like, I’m, everybody’s just going through, Go listen to the album.
You .
Benjamin Hastings: Yeah, yeah. The song probably says it better than, um, better than I’ll be able to articulate. But, um, but yeah, that one, that one felt a bit. To, to put out there, get pretty honest, but there’s bit of hope in the end. I mean, [00:14:00] the, the thing that, I’ll say this, the thing that, um, and you’ll hear it at the end.
There’s an ecologist starts talking that I find on, and I just find it on YouTube randomly. It’s called Chad and, um, views. But I, I listen to it and I was like, Oh my goodness, this guy’s like, the metaphor in this is insane. So I just reached out to him and I was like, Bro, can I sample this? And he was like, Yeah, I’d love that.
Wow. Um, And so the, I I, I had someone told me this, so I, I went and looked it up and, um, sequoias in order to reproduce, need, um, fire and not just any kind of fire, but like intense fire. A fire as Chad says in the video, a fire strong enough that it’s actually gonna kill some of the giant sequoias. But what you get in the bargain is, um, hundreds of more giant ses.
And I thought that was just, especially in light of there. The, um, the Sequoia song before, which was kind of best in the winter. I thought that was a really cool way to develop [00:15:00] the story a little bit. And yeah, I guess, um, yeah, I guess in it we’re the Sequoia and I, Yeah, you have to just listen to the song to right.
Find out whether we. We made it or not? I dunno. , if there’s, That’s
Ryan Loche: great. There’s like, there’s like, it’s almost like the mcu, like you’ve got like layers from different, like you gotta listen to everything the Benjamin’s put together to like get the whole story. That’s awesome. It, it’s a little, Did you like, I’d love to hear like, so like, I mean, so you’re wrestling in the middle of all this, but were you like, there’s gonna be like, but you’re still like songwriting in it.
Like were. What kind of sense did you have on like, like either this is gonna be really awesome at the end, or this is gonna be a train wreck. Like, like what was your, what was your thought in the middle
Benjamin Hastings: of doing this? Yeah, I mean I was kind of, um, it didn’t, a lot of it didn’t feel good riding like, cuz it felt some of it, but, um, but [00:16:00] yeah, I was kind of worried that it was gonna be a bit of a trade wreck and it didn’t make sense that there’s so many, um, There’s so many different kind of things on there.
As in, uh, like I wrote like a song like that The Cathedrals are, or Fifth is, or Dancing On My Shadow. They kind of push in one, uh, direction. But then there was like songs, even like Homeward or Eden that were kind of more like sort of united kind of worship songs. Um, And then that’s the thing about pre is, is so different as well.
It’s kind of a bit more like, um, I don’t wanna say ccm, but it kind of is like, it’s kind of, it has positive sort of that kind of flavor to it. And so I was like, How on earth am I gonna tie all these things together? But I was like, But I want say, I want to say it all and I want to, I want to. And so really I think that’s one of the reasons I ended up becoming 25 tracks.
Cause I was like, I need to, if I’m gonna show that side of [00:17:00] myself, I need to figure out a way that it’s not like, Oh, that’s an island over there and this is another island over there. It was like, I need to show all the steps between. Yeah. And so that’s kind of what there’s a lot of, like, it’s, it’s, it really is kind of all of me and all the things that I’ve kind of put my hand to over the last 10 years, I guess.
And showing all the different sort of aspects and sides of that. And actually I’m really proud of vital. Came together in the end, even the way that most of and stuff and the way we were able to do it with the keys. And it’s like a, it’s like a, that’s not arrogant to say, but it’s like a theory class in like the circle of fits.
Like the way that it, like the, the songs that bump up against each other, the way there is a really good sort of like musical narrative as well as um, a sporadic me narrative, I guess. Yeah, sure.
Ryan Loche: I’m super,
Christopher Bellamy: I love your songwriting and I love your melodies. Like to me, you write some of the best melodies because they’re so, [00:18:00] um, unpredictable.
You know what I mean? That’s like the intervals you use. Um, like even in the past, like in some of the Hillsong stuff, like it’s just out of nowhere, you know, like. And you, it’s like you can’t predict like where you’re gonna go on every verse, you know? Like how, how did you, is that just natural for you or do you think about that?
Like, I want to make these like super interesting melodies?
Benjamin Hastings: Uh, I mean, that’s a good question. I mean, thank you firstly, but, um, I think it’s probably a little bit of both. Like, I think naturally, um, I mean I grew up in Ireland. I grew up listening to like, like, you know, like the rambling Irish, Irish. Poet singer songwriter like Damien Rice and whoever else.
And so I think that side of is kind of embedded in my, in my writing. But then I also grew up like in Salvation Army and we had a big focus on like brass [00:19:00] music and hymns. And so I think probably a lot of the intervals that I choose, or probably from, probably from that, like the. Yeah, like kind of classical, almost classical music or brass kind of brass music hymns.
Um, I think that’s kinda in me somewhere. But then, yeah, combined with the sort of like ramly. Vibe . It’s hard to say. So I think that is kind of my natural go to is some, somewhere between all of that mixed together. And I think you see that actually, I’ve noticed that in other Irish songwriters, like someone like Derma Kennedy is doing really good at the minute in the poppy kind of world.
He does a similar thing. And it’s funny cuz we’re the same age, so we’re probably just grew up eating the same, eating the same food. Yeah. Um, and so, I think, I think something, something to that effect. But I do, I am, I try to be, um, well, I don’t try to be, I, I’ve studied, I have [00:20:00] studied songwriting a lot, as much as I could.
And so a lot of what I do is, is intentional, but I try to not, I try to, for it to be natural. If that, if that makes sense. The way I used to, I used to teach, um, songwriting at a college in Sydney and. One of the things I’d say to them, this is kind of a disgusting metaphor, so sorry if you’re eating your breakfast, but, um, one of the things I’d say to them is, uh, eat everything you can and then throw up.
So like, try and learn, try to know as much as you can about songwriting, but then when you get in a songwriting session, try to not think about a single thing. Try to just, and over time, hopefully the things that you’ve eaten are gonna become, uh, natural to you and it’ll just come up. And so that would kind of be my, um, my approach.
My take,
Christopher Bellamy: if that makes sense. Have you ever had anybody like, I mean, that’s so opposite of like what people consider like worship. Like a lot of times worship is like, Hey, we need to make this repetitive so the congregation can catch on. Quickly, and it [00:21:00] seems like yours, complete opposite. Have you ever had anybody say like, Hey, you need to chill out.
Like we need to make this little more singable. Like,
Benjamin Hastings: I mean yeah, but I, I do actually feel really lucky that I think, um, especially in the Hillsong stuff, they, they really sort of made a place for me and what I was doing. Um, and I think that the benefit of that for me is that I had people around me that, that knew how to write those songs.
So like, you’ve got Ruben and Ben. I mean, they’re really just listers, analysts of all these amazing people that their wheelhouse is writing songs that everyone can sing. And so I think there was, it was kind of room for me to be like, Well, you go write the songs that nobody can sing, but might sound interesting.
Not that the other ones don’t, but at all, some of my favorite songs are their songs, but just like they, there was kind of space for me to kind of go a bit wild and then every now and then people sing them anyway, which is , which I’m really grateful for. Um, and I think in. In reflection, Like there’s things that I realized, I mean, So Will Eli’s a good example because at the [00:22:00] time I remember saying to someone, I remember saying to Cass, like our worship pastor in Sydney, I was like, If, if people sing this song, I’m gonna quit songwriting, teach I’m, I’m gonna quit teaching songwriting.
Cause I was like, No one’s gonna sing this. It’s too hard, it’s too many lyrics. And then the next week she sent me a video of it, like being sung and um, and so I was like, I guess I’m quitting. But, um, The thing that I realized with a song like that in retrospect, and this I’m kind of just being a songwriting nerd and I, but, um, where, where, and this is entirely accident, but you know, the way most songs you’ve got like, um, you’ve got less lyrics and the chorus repeats, right?
But the melodies tend to be a bit more adventurous because of that. Whereas in Civili, there’s obviously a gazillion lyrics, but there’s actually only four melodic. Motifs in the whole song. So you’ve got like da, that was just the verse and then the start of the chorus. And then the [00:23:00] third one is, and then the fourth one is, so the whole song doesn’t at any point stray from those things.
Like the, the bridge is the, its the last line of the chorus. And I think perhaps the stability of they’re not actually being very much melody for people to have to learn allows for. Uh, room for the lyrics to get interest. That makes sense. It’s like there needs to be the things, which was not something I was thinking about at all at the time, but in retrospect, that’s how I’ve rationalized the fact that people sing along
It blows
Christopher Bellamy: my mind. I remember, I specifically remember at my home church, somebody wanted to sing that when it first came out, and I was like, My church is never gonna sing this. They’re never gonna catch on to this. Right? And. It’s one of the ones that’s still, like, when I, when I go home, it’s still in rotation.
Like it’s crazy. Like the congregation like sings all the intervals and the verses [00:24:00] and everything. It just blows my mind that, that that works. You
Benjamin Hastings: know? Yeah. I mean, yeah, Sam, to be honest, I’ll never get over getting just, um, Yeah. It, yeah, it, it is, it’s, it’s one of the coolest things that, that I got to be a part of that and, um, You people will be like, sometimes people say to me, like, I’m going up and tour with, um, actually I can probably say this.
I’m going up and tour with Cody in February, which I’m really excited by. And then Brandon Lick in April, which I think that gets a nice today, so she’ll be fine to say . And um, Brandon and I were talking the other day and he was like, he’s like, Do you get, like, do you want, is it like, are you okaying? And so will I, like, I know you’re probably tired of singing it, but not, And I was like, Honestly, bro, I was like, I don’t think I’ll ever get tired of.
Singing that song just cuz like, it’s been such a, I feel so privileged to be a part of it. And, and I also don’t really understand when like, people are like, Oh, I don’t wanna sing that song anymore. I’ve sung it a thousand times. It’s like, that [00:25:00] just feels so ungrateful to me. It’s like you could have no songs that people wanna listen to, so just be grateful that you have one and get on, get on with singing.
Hmm. Man, that’s crazy.
Ryan Loche: I’m, Should I, I mean at, at the risk of being semi controversial. I’m not sure if like, I’ve heard like your answer, but like, I’m sure you know because the song says evolving, there’s hot controversy in the church. Like, can we just hear from you, your heart on that lyric? Like, I would just love to like hear you talk about it
Benjamin Hastings: and you know, and I’ve got, About this for seven years, and you’re the first person to, Are you serious?
No one wanted to go for it. There’s no way. I’m like, I have dodged this one for seven
Ryan Loche: years. We can keep moving too, if you don’t, if you don’t wanna go after it, that’s fine.
Benjamin Hastings: I wanna hear it now. , I respect the question. I’ve been waiting for it for a long time. . Um, and to be honest, I had a, I had a [00:26:00] whole answer prepared, and it’s been so long that I can’t even remember it.
I had my appropriate PR response, which was something to the effect of, um, uh, oh, lemme see if I can remember it and then I’ll give you, It was something like, um, evolving has a, Yeah, the word evolving has a plethora of meanings and, uh, connotations. Um, and it’s a broad word, and so. Can be used in a plethora of ways and we, I encourage you to use it to worship and spirit in truth.
It was something to that, it was something pr like that. Yeah. I mean, really, man, the, that is kind of the, the heart behind it is that I think there’s a, I was trying to speak into, I was trying to pull more people along and so, yeah, so I think there’s a. Some people in church that obviously, um, don’t [00:27:00] like the idea of evolution and there’s some people in church that do Sure and people don’t, would act like the other people aren’t really Christians if they do.
And then the people that do would be like, Well, I don’t know. We just think about the Bible differently. Or we just. So really I was like, well, here’s a word that for all its kind of controversy, can actually grab both those people at the same time and pull them forward. And I think when, and so for people that are growing up, especially young people that, um, That do love science and that don’t see a conflict with that science in the Bible.
Like they’ll have a place then to be like, kind of what I was saying earlier, like, Oh, I’m not crazy. Like I can, I can this, this same God, There’s actually a way for this to work. And I really do think there is, like, there’s, I think theological, there’s a real pathway there for people, but it doesn’t, I like it’s, that’s that’s up to people to go and figure out with God and with the Bible.[00:28:00]
Whatever. Um, and then on the flip, there’s people that, um, I mean there’s lots of different people that take, take the Bible, literally people that, um, take it. And, and I guess that’s my point in all kinds of ways. And the word is broad enough, um, to grab both those people. Cause no one’s ever really, I don’t, um, especially even in congregations where I feel like probably it would be more of the former like, Most people view it literally, um, literally is not even the right word, but I never feel like people stop singing for that point.
You know? I feel like it’s still, it’s still and gives them something to sing. Yeah. So if I’m helping grab a few more, and I don’t think, I mean, that may, that might be really offensive to it. Some, yeah, they might. But part of it is to. Widen the net, and I don’t think it’s, uh, sacrilegious to [00:29:00] widen the net that far.
I think there’s a way for, I think there’s a way for it to work. Yeah,
Ryan Loche: there it is. I can’t believe nobody asked you that. Yeah, .
Benjamin Hastings: I’m blown away. I need to go in and think of a, think of a more concise, more concise answer. But, but yeah,
Ryan Loche: I, I think maybe it. Just even your journey. Like I, um, I, I, I’m working on a PhD in worship and just like constantly reading the Bible and like books about the Bible and like, it feels like the more you learn about the Lord, the more you realize there’s just a whole lot of mystery to everything about him.
And yeah, it’s sometimes it can be frustrating how much everybody wants to, you know, this is exactly how he all completely makes sense. And it’s like, I don’t, I think he’s meant to be made sense
Benjamin Hastings: of . I, I couldn’t agree. There’s a song I talk about that as a song that Jesus I know. And the last verse kind of speaks to that.
Cause one of the things I find frustrating, especially in the pandemic, people kinda find their voice, which was part of that’s really awesome, but with how confident [00:30:00] people are in who, um, in who God is. And I’m not saying there can’t be fundamentals. I’m not saying you can’t know God, right? Um, truly. But I do think if you, how could you take something that’s entirely infinite?
And then be so branly confident that you have that all figured out and that no one, and that you’re right and everyone else is wrong by the nature of infinity. Like you can’t, like if God is infinite, then there is plenty of stuff that you don’t know. And that stuff might counteract some of the stuff that you do or it might, I don’t.
It’s complicated and the Bible’s complicated. Like there’s a lot of different narratives there. There’s a lot of different, You’re kind of piecing together who God is. The eyes of all of these different people and different people across time and different stories and um, and it’s, it’s not entirely easy to get a clear picture of that.
It’s actually a really complex thing. But the Bible, um, really does a beautiful job actually of, in the midst [00:31:00] of all that, having this amazing meta-narrative where we can see the fundamentals and we can see like these aspects of, of God that are kind of, um, kind of really these clear. Fresh strokes of story throughout.
Yeah. But yeah, to be, to be so brazen, Peter Ann says this book, The Sin of Certainty, and I think that kind of the title itself kind of sums up what I’m trying to say there. Like the, there’s like, there’s maybe something in, in being so sure that you don’t have room to listen to anyone else’s opinion, I think is maybe problematic.
And I do think it’s also, um, Sorry I’m probably going on too long, but I was talking. Uh, the Dean of Theology back to Sydney at the Hillsong College. He was a, he was a good friend of mine and we have made constantly to kind of, um, just talk through stuff and he’s, he’s so smart. So he kind of pressed me in challenging directions and poke me a little bit in a good way.
And, um, [00:32:00] one of the things he said, he was reading a book on the Eastern Orthodox tradition and, um, he said the difference he find when he looked at it was often in the, in the west. Christianity, we start with what we know and we leave room for mystery at the end. Whereas with the Eastern Orthodox tradition, they start with mystery and prayer.
And from there figure out what they know about God. And I thought that was a really sweet, um, I thought that was really interesting, kind of flipping the dogma on its head a little bit. Cause we, we, we look at faith from a very Greek sort of perspective of like, Yeah, it’s black, or it’s white, it’s it’s truth, or it’s false.
Whereas even like the Jews. View it like that. The Old Testament wasn’t written like that. It’s far more, uh, you can hold paradoxes one in one hand and one in the other, and yeah. Somehow you gotta figure stuff out anyway. Yeah. I find, I find all that fascinating. Yeah. How did you,
Christopher Bellamy: how did you end up, So you grew up, [00:33:00] you grew up in Ireland as far as I know.
Yeah. And then how did you get from Ireland? Sydney, like Take Yeah.
Benjamin Hastings: Hills song. Yeah. I, I mean, I really, I went out there to do the college, so I was in Ireland, I was 19. I was like busking, Do you guys know what that is? It’s like the people that just sing on the streets, people from it. And uh, so I was there and I was in a band and things kind of fell through and so yeah, I just kind of made the jump.
Went out to Sydney, did. The Bible College right there. And I mean, I, it was kind of a wild, uh, it was a wild journey. I was out there for about a year and a half. It kinda had a similar to what I’ve been talking about the last three years, had my first sort of existential crisis, if you will, where I was like, um, I just, I, I think, I think Bible college was so intense for me in general that I was, it just kind of, uh, It was a lot.
And so I, um, [00:34:00] I came halfway through that. I got to the same certain place where I was like, God, I don’t even know where you are, who you are. And, um, but I know you’re, I know you’re real. Like, I was like, I knew that much. I was like, Or at least I’m gonna choose to believe you are for the next six months.
And in, in that next six months, you absolutely kind of blew my mind. So I am, I ended up getting, I was walking this lady, I was at a conference kind of just volunteering and um, I was walking this lady to a car. So that was kind of my, my job was, it was raining and I was just holding that umbrella for some of the girls walking into the car.
And, um, I was walking this lady and she stopped in the, where normal conversation, she stops in the middle of the rain and turns around and looks me in the eyes and is like, Are you a. And I was like, Yeah, actually I am. And she started prophesying over me in the middle of the rain and Sydney was like, I, I seen you, the ability to express deep truth and this is [00:35:00] something you need to go after, whatever.
And it absolutely shook me. Like it was one of the first times I really felt like I heard from God in a way that I couldn’t avoid it or like it just went all the way through my body. I just knew. And um, and pretty much the next day I. Um, the next day I wrote a song that I ended up kind of, um, ended up getting the church and us doing it, and then a couple weeks later I wrote a song called Captain, which ended up in one of the United Records.
And it kind of was this real life changing moment. Like at that point I didn’t think I was gonna do worship music. I thought I was gonna move to live on the beach, learn how to be a dj, to make money and like write dance music. Like that was actually my plan. , I had it all. I had like $200 in my bank account and I was like, I can make this work.
Um, so the, it was a complete sort of life, um, altering experience. And then within that next two months, I met my wife and, [00:36:00] um, yeah, it was really kind of crazy. That’s cause and I think I, I think in it, I really didn’t, kind of what you were saying earlier, but like, Do people ever with your songwriting, do people ever try to like box you in?
I think so much of what happened to me in that prophecy was I felt like the limits. I felt like I stopped trying to write, Cause I tried to write worship music. Obviously I’m in Bible college, but the all my songs just sounded like really bad versions of Ruben songs. Like I’m like, Here’s this guy writing these amazing songs for the church to sing.
And I’m just writing really subpar versions of them. And this prophecy kind of. Give me the ability for some reason to be like, Okay, well Heidi, I wanna say this. Or if I was just writing directly with God, not worrying about whether people could sing it or not, what would it sound like? And that was kind of actually when I started writing songs that people did, were interested in singing.
And so, um, yeah, it was kind
and I guess, um, it’s funny looking back [00:37:00] that, you know, you get to that place once where you’re like, God, are you even right there? And. Get out of that and you’re like, Oh, I’ll never think that again. Thank you so much for bringing me through that. You’re so good. And then it’s like, what? Seven years later you’re like, Oh, here we again.
We’re back. I didn’t think that would happen so soon, but, um, but yeah, hopefully it’s, hopefully I’m not making the same record again in another seven years. Yeah.
Christopher Bellamy: So where do you call home now?
Benjamin Hastings: Uh, la Trying to think that for a minute. Yeah. Yeah. So I’m in. Which has been, It’s been good. I’ve been there for about a year and a half, so I’ve got to, um, yeah, I got married in Australia and got two Australian kids and we all moved out there about a year and a half ago, which has been good.
Wow.
Christopher Bellamy: That’s, that’s three completely different
Benjamin Hastings: places. I know , it’s, it’s all over the place. And my wife wants to live in London so bad, so I’m probably gonna have to add that to the list at [00:38:00] some point. Wow.
Christopher Bellamy: Your wife is from
Benjamin Hastings: a. Yeah, it’s from Australia.
Christopher Bellamy: Wow. So what do you, what do you do when you’re not on tour?
Like, what are you doing in, in la
Benjamin Hastings: I mean, honestly, this year has been in San, like I’ve barely been in la, which has been hard. Um, but I try to, I mean, we golf a lot, especially on tour, so that’s super fun. Kind of keeps everything interesting, keeps each city kind of, um, Well, cause you never really see the cities, you’re just looking at the parking lot.
So kind of keeps things fun. Get out and see the grass. Um, but I really don’t get to play much in la I mean, honestly, when I’m home, I’m normally catching up between Cuz with doing United and doing my own thing. Like when I get home, I’m kind of having to catch up on one or the other. So I’ll either be driving down to the OOC to write with Joel and just hang out and work on stuff.
Or I’ll be just home from me, United here and it’s like, [00:39:00] okay, I gotta respond to like a million emails and I gotta like get up to date with my stuff. And. Keep things moving right from my thing. So I haven’t had much, I mean I honestly haven’t had really any off time this year, so I’m really looking forward to December where I can kinda just unwind a little bit.
My parents gonna come over, my brother’s gonna come over, I’ll just do a ton of barbecues and sit in the sun and you know, maybe go skiing me, drive to Big Bear or something and do some skiing. So I’m really looking forward to, to that in December. Really don’t know what, what I do in LA Cause I don’t feel like I’ve really lived there yet.
Wow. This
Christopher Bellamy: current tour you’re with, are you, you’re with Cody right now?
Benjamin Hastings: No, I’m with, uh, Tomlin and United. Oh, Tomlin, okay.
Christopher Bellamy: And then, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you’re, are you going, did you say you’re
Benjamin Hastings: going with Cody? Cody in February? Um, which is gonna be super fun. Um, I can’t remember everywhere we’re going, but.
Anyone follows me on Instagram, the links in the bio on Cody’s Instagram and stuff, [00:40:00] and then with, I am gonna with Brandon Link in, uh, in April. It’s gonna be super fun. So who’s your, who’s your players
Christopher Bellamy: right now for your band?
Benjamin Hastings: I mean, that’s a really good question. I’ve, I’ve only done a few, a lot of the stuff I’ve done, I’ve done by myself.
Um, and then I’ve taken Ida 10 and Joe V on a couple things. It’s been super fun. But yeah, aside from that, I haven’t really, so I need to figure that out for those things. And what I’m gonna do, I think the Cody one will just all be, will be up there together the whole time. So sharing a band and I actually don’t know if he’s got a plan for that yet.
Um, I’m sure he does. And then with the, the branded one, I gotta figure that out. But yeah, any Joe, been awesome.
That’s
Christopher Bellamy: so, so crazy to me that you have such a big network that like, you’re just like, ah, you know, whoever , like, [00:41:00] you know, like the who’s who of like, like worship players on stage with you no matter what. Like, that’s, that’s crazy.
Benjamin Hastings: It’s, I mean, it’s really, they’re, and they’re, they really are all amazing. Um, Yeah.
And I’ve not such good chemistry with all the United guys that, I mean, if they, if any of them fancy, taking some more time can come in, then I’ll always have room for them. But I don’t know, I mean, we tour so much that they probably just wanna be at home. .
Ryan Loche: I’d love to, we’re just about out of time here, but I’d love to maybe cap it if you have any.
Encouragement as best as you can, knowing full well that it’s gonna be very specific for every person, but like your journey of like readily struggling with the Lord and just struggling. Yeah. You know, honestly with just like the way we understand God and the way the church is functioning, like I, I hear that a lot from young worship leaders, old worship leaders, everybody seems kind of disenfranchised with [00:42:00] almost everything.
Like you have any encouragement for, uh, the person that is trying to struggle through that to maybe help them. Just drop the whole thing like that seems like where a lot of people go anyway. Yeah,
Benjamin Hastings: completely. Um, I mean I’ve got a lot of, I’ve got a lot of thoughts.
Yeah. I think try your best not to get cynical would be the first thing. Cuz I think it’s hard to do anything productive once you send it go. The problem is, I think, um, I think really what happens is you’ve got these frameworks of your faith, right? And cuz faith is such a fundamental, important part of our lives, that kind of is a big, it’s a big piece.
It’s almost like it’s another, I mean it is a relationship, but it’s like another, it’s like, it’s like your relationship with your wife or relationship with your kids or whatever. These fundamental building blocks that, um, if something happens with your wife, like if there’s a trust [00:43:00] broken or something happens, it’s kind of your world falls into a little bit of chaos while you.
While you try to put together the pieces? Well, I think it’s kind of similar with faith. You have this relationship with God and who you know him to be. And if, if there’s like a, if one of the pillars of that kind of, um, starts to get a bit shaky, it really does kind of, it can send you into an, an element of chaos.
And that’s kind of what I experienced. It was, I was feeling like depressed even and, um, struggling, but I didn’t really. I didn’t know why, but I think it was just because this, like, God is so important to me and it’s such a fundamental part of my life that when I felt like I didn’t really know who he was anymore, understand him, or, um, I, it was everything was like, Well, what do I know and what is real?
And one of the fundamentals of my life had kind been shifted. The paradigm was off. And um, and so I think firstly, it’s okay to admit that like you’re struggling with. and then I think, I think it’s the only way, [00:44:00] um, is to go on the journey of kind of figuring, figuring out what is, what is real. I think there’s obviously a lot of negative.
Connotations around the idea of deconstruction, but I think that’s really interesting because I think nobody willingly teared on a heist that’s perfectly good. Like nobody’s teared down their mansion for the sake of it just building another mansion. I think the only teared on when there’s something wrong with it or it’s gonna break anyway, or it’s already crumbled and you’re just pretending it hasn’t.
So I think deconstruction is. I think it’s necessary cuz you’re only, you’re, Yeah, you’re trying to, If, if you get there, if your house is perfectly fine, then, then, then grip, keep it, keep it going. Um, but if there’s things that need to change and you realize they’re not working and things are already kind of crumbling on you, then it’s probably time to accept that and to try to have a bit of a rebuild and, and figure out, Okay, well the things that I thought as a 19 year old about God, you know, I’ve seen a bit more of the world.
I’ve learned a bit. [00:45:00] I, I maybe just don’t. Um, it doesn’t all, all doesn’t line up the same. And I have always fine, even to this day that when I’ve pursued God in that regard, um, aspects of the Bible that didn’t make sense actually start to come alive over time. There’ll be stories that in hindsight actually, they get a new meaning almost, and they actually do make a lot more sense to me.
So I think staying. Staying in the fight, um, is important. Trying your best not to become cynical in the midst of that cause Sorry, my point before, when you do to the chaos that I was talking about it, it’s a natural part of that to become cynical and hit the world around you. That’s a really common thing.
You, its about the night of. It’s like you, Yeah. You just, you become better and there’s nothing to live for. But I think. Fighting beyond that for the, for the hope again, [00:46:00] and rebuilding whatever the pillars are in a positive way that, um, that you see the, the light at the end of the tunnel. I think all my favorite music does that.
And really, with the record, that’s what I was saying, is giving people the hope at the end of it, saying, Yeah, things. Sometimes things suck and sometimes it’s not all working like he thought it did or so. You know, the things that you, How do I say that the right way? Almost like the things, the way you translated it, the things you learned in Sunday school don’t quite make sense.
Yeah. The way that comes to real life, you know, like, um, And we see that all the time. There’s no point pretending like it doesn’t exist. Like people say, like, like I know God can heal people and I know that, but we say, like, we say things like, you know, God’s gonna, God’s in the room and he is gonna heal you today.
And then people die of cancer. And it’s like, Okay, well there’s a real disconnect there. Yeah. And so it’s, it’s trying to figure out, okay, well which of these things, what I actually think [00:47:00] about God, What is the Bible actually saying? And how I build this thing that’s gonna be sustainable for the next little while.
And I think it’s agile. Like I think you learn in time. Um, you often, like I remember as a kid talking to, um, older people and not really understanding their perspective, like thing, they felt like a lot less like, um, I don’t know. It’s almost like the wisdom. Of time kind of gives you a certain, uh, ease and, uh, assurance that things are gonna be okay, but young people are so much more like, Let’s go after this.
Let’s grab it. Sorry, I’m, I really am rambling at this point, but, um, That is great. . Yeah, I would say stay in the ring. You’re gonna be okay, but try not to hear the world.
Ryan Loche: Thanks so much for listening to this week’s episode. We cannot wait to see you again. Make sure to head over to Instagram, TikTok, Pinterest, YouTube, wherever you are.
Shoot us at dm. We would love to chat with you. We absolutely love it. Talk to you later.