Wow! The wisdom that Steven Curtis Chapman brought to the podcast this week has been just incredible. He talks about longevity in Christian music, how his music is a reflection of what the Lord is doing in his life, and his thoughts on the future of music and the church.
Podcast Transcript
Ryan Loche
Welcome to the church collective podcast. In this episode, I had the opportunity to talk with Steven Curtis Chapman and I think you are going to absolutely love this, he has got so much wisdom, and he’s been at this for so long, I think you’re gonna be able to get so much out of this. So here we go with the podcast.
Steven Curtis Chapman
last few years, I have thought a lot about, you know, obviously, we’ve been through so much going on in our world and just, global pandemic, and so many things that, you know, the way I process life and faith and what God teaching me and what do I think, you know, going on in the world, just songs are how I’ve always done that. And, you know, you can almost go back and listen to my, you know, my life, you know, through my music and probably figure out generally, the ages of my kids where I am in my married journey, you know, you can Nellis hear all that, because it’s just very honest, for me to this is how I kind of wrestled with these things. And, and 35 years ago, this year was my first album, so I knew that I was kind of coming up on that sort of mile marker of 35 years, you know, as a songwriter, communicator, a guy who’s always, you know, written songs, and you know, out of that place of wanting to just share my journey with, with whoever will listen and encourage him. I’ve had incredible, you know, obviously, success beyond anything I could have imagined. And, and so, one of the challenges for we insecure artists, and I’m just gonna say we all are, because then I feel less alone and like the, like the Goofy, Goofy, Goofy one. But I think we all are at some level, you know, with new music, when you’ve had a long history of success. A lot of times if I play a new song, or have new music, you know, at this point in my career, many times people will be like, Man, you know, that’s really nice. But gosh, you’re never gonna write, you know, the great adventure. Now, that was the song that really changed. Or, you know, you know, name the song, you know, Cinderella, I will be here, oh, man dive now, when that record came out, I was indicted at it, and they start telling your story, which is awesome. It’s so encouraging. But the flip side of it is you kind of just said that, you know, whatever new thing you have to say, you know, that, thank you. But I’m not really that interested in that. Because when I think of Steven Curtis Chapman, I think that you know, and it’s a reality. I mean, I got a friend of mine, who is the biggest, he’ll say, I’m probably the biggest YouTube fan on the planet. But I really don’t care if they make any new music, because I am a YouTube fan of the music that means so much to me, throughout my life. And it takes me to these places in my life and in my memory, you know, and it’ll always mean that to me. So all that is a backdrop for me to kind of wrestle through. You know, there’s nothing contractually saying, I have to make another album, there’s nothing. And there’s even some things that make me wonder, you know, does the world need or care if Steven Khrushchev and makes new music with a read or just hear me sing the songs that mean so much, and I’m thankful for that it’s an incredible blessing. But I also found myself saying, you know, what, I need to write these songs and record these songs. And I’ll trust God with, you know, who needs to hear him or where they go. But I know, for me, it’s important for me to put these, you know, thoughts to music and record the songs that I’ve been writing, because my perspective at this point in my life, is something that I wouldn’t have had perspective of, even 510 20 years ago, when I sing a song, you know, about God’s faithfulness. And I sing it when I wrote the great adventure. It’s a whole deeper way deeper level of what I mean, and what my experience is. And there’s a lot more battle scars, and there’s a lot more pain, but a lot more depth of, you know, the hope that’s in that when I think about it now. And so, that’s really what the song is still, you know, the whole project, the whole, all the songs that I started to write, I realized, I still have this passion. And there’s compelling to write and sing songs about God’s faithfulness and God’s goodness, because I still believe it. I’m still married. By His grace, I’m still believing I’m still on my faith journey. And I’m still figuring it out and I’m still a mess, and I’m still in progress. You know, that word still just captured so much for me about where I am, musically, my faith and all that. And I think there’s something there’s a real power in that word, you know, when we see so much changing in our world, and deconstructing and all the things going on in faith and in the church and politically and racially and certainly the pandemic, just a word like still just felt like yeah, that’s an anchor heard that I’m gonna drop and write that song.
Ryan Loche
Yeah, I’d love like you. I’m just thinking, as you’re talking about all that stillness there, like, I would love to just pick your brain a little bit like how? And I’d imagine you’re just states by the Lord’s grace. But I would just love to hear like, how have you set yourself up for this longevity? Just both like, I guess even in the industry, but I think more importantly, what the Lord, I mean, like you said, so many people are like walking away from church or faith or some version of both of those. Yeah, what how do you how do we not end up like that?
Steven Curtis Chapman
Yeah, you know, I really think one of the things is, for me having this, you know, this calling and platform and, in a sense, a responsibility that comes with that, too. And feeling that, you know, to say, I’m going to, you know, I’ve been given this, this opportunity to sing and encourage people in their faith journey. But I, I’m struggling, I’m, you know, I’m feeling the doubt, especially walking through, you know, what I have, in recent years, the loss of our youngest daughter, Maria, 14 years ago, now, you know, where my life and faith journey and, you know, my wife and I walk in, through we’ve written, she’s written a book about it, we’ve written, you know, both of our versions and our stories, my wife, you know, battling, you know, with depression, and the impact of that mean, just being honest in those things. And, and all of those things, either, they do one of two things, I heard somebody say, a long time ago, trouble will come into your life now, I’ll try everything I can. I’m a fixer. In fact, there’s a song on my new album called unfixable. And the question I wrestle with, what do I do with all these unfixable more and more, the longer I go in my life, I realized there are things in this world in this life, that are not fixable, there are things about my relationship with my wife, and things that we can work on. And we’ve been to every counselor that Nashville can offer. And none of them have been able to fix this yet. And we spend a lot of money with them. And I’m really kind of mad about that. But you know, and I’ve read a lot of the books, and they haven’t fixed this either. And there’s a part of me that thinks, you know, I think the reality is, as much as I am a fixer, I’m never going to get a lot of these things fixed. Of course, the ultimate unfixable, as a father would be to lose a child, well, then we walk through that process, and you carry that and you, you, so what do you do with those things, those things are going to come into our lives as just the human experience. And maybe foolishly, like some, I certainly, you know, had this understanding, growing up with this, you know, gospel message being God loves you, and has a wonderful plan for your life. So when you begin to realize, wait a minute, that wonderful plan might not be so wonderful. Sometimes, in fact, it might really not make any sense. And in fact, it might really be way harder than I imagined. And God’s not fixing this, and I can’t figure out how to fix me or fix this thing that’s broken. So what am I gonna do with it. And when those things come into our life, remember someone years ago, and I’ve just it’s, I’m a simple picture guy. And they just said things come into our life. And it’s like, they fall, either they fall in one place or the other. And we really decide where they fall. They either fall between us and God when those circumstances come, that we can’t understand, or we can’t figure out and they push us away, and they become a divider. And we’re like, Well, if God lets that happen, then I’m out on that. Or if God doesn’t explain this, or that doesn’t make sense, that doesn’t fit into the paradigm of our sin, or we let it fall outside and press us in to God to say, God, I don’t understand it. But basically, the whole of Scripture, you know, when you really start to peel, peel it back, you start to look under the hood, you know, and you start to realize, wait a minute, you know, what is it Abraham, you know, grew in his faith, you know, as he, you know, as he tries to guide as he, you know, worship God, it’s like, as he said, God, I’m gonna trust you. I don’t know how you’re gonna make good on your promise to make me the father, you know, you know, as many stars as are on the heaven, but I’m, I’m going to trust you, you know, or job or, you know, King David or whatever. So I think it’s, it’s, you know, you are right, my answer is, it’s the grace of God. But, you know, what’s that look like? Well, that’s everything from making those choices. But even that making those choices are the result of God, you know, putting in our lives and me seeking out Godly counsel pastors, you know, those who mentored me through their books from, you know, CS Lewis to Oswald Chambers to AW Tozer. And, you know, people that I’ve had relationship with like Chuck Colson. And you know, my pastor Scotty Smith for 35 years that, you know, has mentored me and walked with me and just seeking those those people out as well to walk on this journey with.
Ryan Loche
Yeah. You mentioned like Tozer and stuff like what what are some of your favorite books and studies and stuff that you go through?
Steven Curtis Chapman
Well, I mean, obviously, you know that I did not grow up as a reader. I read, I think maybe one or two books, you know, that I that and that was because I had to until I was probably early 20s. And then I had a pastor, a very dear friend, who began to kind of say, Hey, have you ever read you know, a pursuit of God? You know, AW Tozer. Like, No, I never heard of it, you know, and I read it. And, you know, so I began to just kind of the cost of discipleship Dietrich Bonhoeffer, you know, for a non reader, I bawled my way, duty, heavy duty. And I’m sure I’ve still missed most of it, but I did get, you know, picked up little nuggets. In fact, that’s where the, you know, I wrote a song called for the sake of the call that actually came as a that’s a direct quote from cost of discipleship. Children of the burning heart is a direct quote that came from AW Tozer book, you know, Oswald Chambers, you know, the many of my songs influenced by his utmost for his highest and, obviously, which, who of us songwriters, or any any of us that haven’t been impacted by CS Lewis is, you know, writings and readings and, you know, it’s a song on my new album, in fact, that it’s called do it again, and someone the other day said, I’m on to you. That’s Chesterton in knowing, yeah, you got me you got. And I’m not even smart enough to read Chesterton. I just read enough of his great quotes to go. I’m writing that when do you know that God is infinitely young, we’re the ones who get old and everyday God says, I’m going to do it again. I’m gonna do it again. That’s amazing. I gotta write that. So you know, those are those are some, but I, you know, I’m, I wish I was even more of a reader than I am. But I’m still trying, I’ve got a big ol long list of books that Lord willing, I will get to, you know, one of these days and get to read all the all the greats and all the classics, and I’m still trying to get I mean, I just recently about two years ago, finally read East of Eden, you know, which is not a spiritual class, but man, what an amazing book, incredible book. And, and, you know, so anyway, I do love that’s my, that’s my dream, you know, of life sitting on the beach somewhere, just with about 10 books, and you know, somebody saying, you’re not allowed to leave this beach until you’ve read all those books. Okay, I think that’s called heaven.
Ryan Loche
Right? Right. But it sounds like like, like you’re saying, your songs come from life. I’d love to hear I’m sure tons of people would love to hear like your songwriting process. Do you go about I need to make some songs? Or do you just kind of let that let the, let them come as life feel? Like, is it your way of processing? Like, what what’s it look like?
Steven Curtis Chapman
For you? Yeah, absolutely. You, you know, hit the nail on the head. The last thing you said, it’s really just my way of processing life. You know, if you listen through, you know, if it’s, you know, when when things are going on in the world, my my way to wrestle through and try to process so often is just my journaling is songs, you know, I’ve tried journaling, and I go back, and I’ve got probably 20 journals that have about three pages filled out, and then I’m, like, you know, it’s like a turn over to the bar, I’m gonna write journals, now I’m gonna do this. And I get about three or four days in, and then I, you know, lose my, my way, but, but songs, you know, as, as life is happening is something that may be something I’ve read, it may be something that, you know, I’m just processing. And of course, I’m fresh with this newest album of going through the list of songs and the thoughts of, you know, I’ve got a song, you know, my new record is an example of my best friend in seventh grade was a kid named Carlton bell. And he was he was black, and I was white, and I never even really thought about it. I grew up, you know, with a lot of folks on our street where I grew up or black families and Carlton was just my best friend. We play drums together in the middle school marching band, and we got to go to Disney World and march in the Disney World parade. So the first time I ever went to Disney World, and first time I rode Space Mountain was my with my best friend Carlton Bell. So I always think of that when I go back to Disney World or, you know, first time I you know, experienced any of that and, and when all of the, you know, racial things, it really started to just, you know, intensify in our in our country these last couple of years. I, you know, began to, you know, ask myself and wrestle in way He’s I’ve never had with guys, I don’t know, you know what it’s like the perspective of, you know, friends of mine who are black and sat around my fire pit here one night with, you know, white and black friends and just said, talk to me, let’s just talk about what’s it been like, you know, growing up and being, you know, in your skin and that I wouldn’t ever understand. And I kept thinking about my friend Carlton and I wrote a song called Living Color. And it’s just a story song about my best friend when I was in seventh grade, just wonder what happened to him. And as the song I won’t give it away, spoiler alert, you know, on it, but I kind of explained the song of just going into the process of trying to track him down and see, you know, what it was, and, and kind of where it took me. And, and, you know, even with that, even in that song, you know, trying to be as honest as I could, there’s even a lyric in the song that says, If I’m honest, I’m scared to even write and sing this song. Because I don’t want to somehow say the wrong thing. You know, the danger of even trying to be honest, and say, man up, this is hot, such a hot button, and a hot topic, I don’t want to do this wrong. So maybe I shouldn’t even do it. And I was like, Well, I’m gonna process this out as honest as I can. And, you know, in a song, and that’s the way I was, I was able to do that. So, you know, it’s that kind of thing. It’s just, it’s the stuff that surrounded me the things that I look around and think, you know, these are, or I want to encourage others, you know, from my own perspective, I mean, I’ve become a in the last few years.
Steven Curtis Chapman
You know, a fan of Bruce Springsteen, last couple of records, I think you’re just amazing, made a record called letter to you and a record called Western stars. And I’ve, I’ve never been a huge Springsteen fan, but I, I, not that I didn’t, I’ve always had a respect for him. But just, you know, really knowing the records. And, you know, knowing all track five and six and seven, I just know the hits like most people, unless you’re a real fan, well, these last few years, you know, I’ve just kind of tapped into his, his, his art, his poetry, his storytelling as a songwriter. And I’ve been really inspired by it. And here’s a guy, he’s 70 years old, he could have hung his guitar up a long time ago, didn’t have to make new music, but I’m really thankful that he did, because it’s inspired me and it’s, it’s great art that just, you know, I’ve found a real inspiration from and so I think that was one of the things even for me, it’s like there’s, there’s a perspective, at this point in my life, and the songwriting process, that’s always what I’ve done is just let me share my perspective. Now Cinderella, you know, wouldn’t have ever written that song had I not had two little girl girls that wanted to dance with me one night, and I was tired. And, you know, I never sat down and thought I need to write a song about right. And who shows up for his daughter’s. So what can I write about? It just happened and I and I put it to music? You know? So yeah, it’s a lot of that’s a lot of where my music comes from.
Ryan Loche
So many wedding songs out of that one. Are wedding dances. Yeah.
Steven Curtis Chapman
Oh, yeah. It’s been a few.
Ryan Loche
What? I’d love to like we’re just a little bit of time here. I’d love to hear your thoughts having 35 years in the industry and kind of like the church and church music and Christian music. What what do you think? What’s your gut on where we’re going? In the next 510 years? Yeah, as much as you can. It feels like I asked this a lot for a lot of people and you’re kind of like, Man, I have no idea Lord’s good.
Steven Curtis Chapman
But there it is. That’s yeah. Well, if I may, you know, because I certainly don’t have a crystal ball. And I don’t I’d so I don’t have any idea where it’s going. I know where I, where I hope it’s going and where I get hopeful. That that it could go and, and that is clearly I am deeply grateful for and even sort of ventured into corporate worship, out of out of my own experience of how important and really life and soul saving for me, declaration songs like less would be the name of the Lord, you give you take away excuse me, those songs. Were on a truly lifelines for me when we lost our daughter to just when I couldn’t sing anything else, and I really wasn’t even singing that I was more squeaking it out or screaming it at the top of my lungs. But just saying God, this is what I’m going to choose and I didn’t you know, I I didn’t need or want or you know, it wasn’t time to you know, think you know, a story song. I don’t know if I’ll ever write those again, I just need to be able to say, God, I’m gonna trust you, God, I’m gonna trust you, God, I’m gonna trust you. Yeah, just and so out of that, you know, wrote some songs, that, that we’re in that sort of vertical, you know, corporate worship sort of thing with an album called worship and believe, but and so deeply grateful for the worship music movement, and how it’s given voice to, you know, to the church, contemporary church to express, you know, our worship, and our thanks to the Lord. I, I with that, miss it, you know, begin to miss the songs that do, again, take you on a journey to tell a story. And, you know, the, this, you know, New Testament is full of I mean, the, the whole of the Bible is, is a story, God, you know, God reveals Himself in story. No, Jesus over and over again, the kingdom of heaven is light. And I’m gonna tell you a story, you know, you know, a servant, you know, a master calls his servants, and he’s going away, and I’m gonna tell you the story, you know, and so, I love that and, and I’m drawn to that. So, storytelling, you know, great storytelling, we should be the best storytellers of all, because we have the best story to tell, we shouldn’t be the most creative artists, we should write the most clever songs. Yeah, the most fresh, I never heard it said like that, you know, CS Lewis again, you know, we go back over and over again, there’s a guy who, you know, creatively painted a picture of the gospel in a way that, you know, someone who didn’t even know that, you know, what they were getting, they were, you know, thought they were just reading the story about, you know, a lion and this, you know, fantasy world.
Steven Curtis Chapman
That the brilliance of that just the, you know, the beauty, I think of, of, you know, the, you know of truth in that the way it shines, and it’s illuminated, you know, art that’s illuminated with truth, that’s always been, I heard somebody say that years ago, and I’m like, That’s what I want to do that will make great art that is just kind of has this glow about it, because it’s got, you know, the truth. So there’s great songs, there’s great art I mentioned, you know, Bruce Springsteen, I can tell you, you know, the songs I love, but and they’re great, it’s great art, but then, you know, I’m like, man, if that’s good, well, what happens if it gets the glow of, you know, of the gospel of eternal truth? That it man, that’s, that’s what I aspire to hope for, and hope to see, continue, you know, in, in Christian music, and because if anybody ought to be doing it, the best of anybody, it ought to be those of us who know where it comes from, you know, right. Yeah. And that’s so that is, that is my hope. And, you know, I can say, with, with the growth of worship music, so much that I think that’s taken a backseat in some ways, I’m encouraged to know and see here of artists who are, you know, compelled to write continue to write those kinds of songs. I think it’s both and we need both, right. That’s one to the, to the exclusion of the other, and not just in music, but in filmmaking and, you know, in all of it across the board. I mean, I’m so proud of my boys, you know, they’re my sons, Caleb and Willer in a band called Colony house. And they’re amazing alternative rock musicians, you know, who are making great art, eliminate by their faith, and, you know, and it’s not music that they’re, you know, like their dad made, but, but I see them writing great songs, and telling great stories. And, you know, making fun music that people go, man, it’s so fun. And it’s got a pureness about it, too. What is that? How can you do that?
Ryan Loche
Let me tell you about how to be so they get
Steven Curtis Chapman
the opportunity. Yeah. So anyway, that’s, that’s not really an answer, but that’s my that’s fantastic.
Ryan Loche
Yeah, that’s awesome. Thanks so much for listening to this week’s episode. Make sure you’re connecting with us everywhere Instagram, tik, Tok, LinkedIn, Pinterest, we are all over the place and can’t wait to say hey,